Balanced army list 2k tow

[Toai]

Greetings creatures of the night,

This is my first thread, but im dying for your input on my first list msde for 2k points. The thought proces is as follows:
- multiple threads (blood knights, terrorgheist+dragon)
- nasty lord on zombiedragon, without much risk due to a necro beeing the general
- general hides behing gg troops, + beeing ethereal as support ion
- skellies protect the flank of the gg unit ( which goes in the middle, which is faster due to the banner).
- rare choices go on both flanks with dogs to screen

Ur input is much appreciated:

===
Vampire Counts [1998 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts
===

++ Characters [830 pts] ++

Vampire Count [475 pts]
- Hand weapon
- No armour
- Zombie Dragon
- Armour of Destiny
- Giant Blade
- Dark Magic

Master Necromancer [225 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- General
- On foot
- Sceptre Of De Noirot
- Cloak Of Mist & Shadows
- Dark Magic

Wight Lord [70 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Battle Standard Bearer
- On foot
- Charmed Shield

Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts]
- Hand weapon
- On foot
- Necromancy

++ Core Units [717 pts] ++

20 Skeleton Warriors [115 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shield
- Skeleton Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

27 Grave Guard [382 pts]
- Great weapons (replace shields)
- Heavy armour
- Seneschal
- Standard bearer [Standard Of Hellish Vigour]
- Musician

25 Skeleton Warriors [140 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shield
- Skeleton Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

++ Rare Units [451 pts] ++

Terrorgheist [205 pts]
- Filth-encrusted talons
- Rancid Maw
- Calloused Hide (light armor)

5 Blood Knights [246 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Iron-Shod Hooves
- Full Plate Armour
- Shield
- Barding
- Kastellan [Charmed Shield]
- Standard bearer
- Musician

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battles]

 

[Veland]

Hi,
Zombie Dragon provides your Vampire with 4+ armour save already, and it does not add to the save from Armour of Destiny.
I know that 4+ Ward is tempting.
Besides, you cannot cast spells while wearing AoD, but the save granted by your ZD does not stop you from proper spellcasting.
Giant blade adding just +1 S will give you little, what is needed now is high Armour Piercing (Armour Bane to a lesser degree)
I think 2 skeleton units are too much and too classic to fit in the Old World edition of the game.
With one Wight Lord, you can already take GG as a Core unit, so better take minimum of core (25%) and use the rest of points on some Special choices.

In my opinion Undead lost a way more regarding tactics, than gained, in the OW.
- Red Fury gone
- flammable (!) negates your regen on any unit with Dark Vitality special rule
- reliable Invocation of Nehek is gone (now its a test Ld 8, necros or a vampire with this power)
- IoN only heals wounds, does not increase Zombies beyond starting size
- your units can no longer march, unless they have Dark Vitality rule
- tarpitting a dangerous foe with zombies is gone, thanks to the Give ground rule (the target will win the fight, detach from zombies, likely fly away = its no use)
- you cannot plan your fights ahead, counting on your unbreakable units to stay and fight the battle of attrition for you, exacty because of Give ground rule
- casting spells in armour is gone
- 2 4+ ward saves are gone
- taking numerous chaff units like 3 units of 2 bats, 3 units of single Spirit host is gone
- 4+ Regen from Varghulf is gone
- natural AP from high Strength from all previous editions is gone, basically without proper weapon you cannot do a thing with your Str 5 against high armour save

Cheers,
V.

 

[Toai]

Hi!

Thank you for your swift reply.
I think your points are correct.

Im considering a talesman of protecton + ogre blade as an alternative. But the 4+ ward was indeed tempting considering I have 8 wounds.. I found the vampiric powers dissapointing though.

And combining the skelly unit is not a bad idea either. I agree we went from a tier S army to a tier C, but tbh I thought it was quite ridiculous how strong vamps were in earlier editions.

Any recommendations which special choice I should go for? Or fit the gap with more magic items?

 

[Veland]

Hi,

You're welcome
For AoD builds, I recommend that you just don't hope for your Vampire general to cast spells. It can be done indeed. Alternatively, you can use Flayed hauberk to still cast spells while wearing armour.
I agree about the vampiric powers VC are a weak list now. Though depending on your opponent (if you know what army you'll be facing) perhaps VC can still hold the line.
Being strong in previous editions, yes perhaps with a cheesy list, but they were definitely better overall. So many limitations destroy this army composition now, for example you must take a wraith or banshee character to be able to field hexwraiths...

In my opinion, skeleton's power lies in the possibility to take a 50p magic banner, and to take spears. They can have reserve move this way, or wound the enemy with AB 2, also with supporting attacks from spears.
Another source of reserve move is in casting Hellish Vigour. Putting in them a wight with Helm of Commandment also seems to help hit more often and not be hit so often in return.

I also realized that wight BSB enables IoN's Ld test to be rerolled, that'd be important to use.

I think the best special choices are Vargheists and grave guard, after that I'd say Black knights and Crypt horrors.

 

[VonGus]

Hi,
Zombie Dragon provides your Vampire with 4+ armour save already, and it does not add to the save from Armour of Destiny.
I know that 4+ Ward is tempting.
Besides, you cannot cast spells while wearing AoD, but the save granted by your ZD does not stop you from proper spellcasting.
Giant blade adding just +1 S will give you little, what is needed now is high Armour Piercing (Armour Bane to a lesser degree)
I think 2 skeleton units are too much and too classic to fit in the Old World edition of the game.
With one Wight Lord, you can already take GG as a Core unit, so better take minimum of core (25%) and use the rest of points on some Special choices.

In my opinion Undead lost a way more regarding tactics, than gained, in the OW.
- Red Fury gone
- flammable (!) negates your regen on any unit with Dark Vitality special rule
- reliable Invocation of Nehek is gone (now its a test Ld 8, necros or a vampire with this power)
- IoN only heals wounds, does not increase Zombies beyond starting size
- your units can no longer march, unless they have Dark Vitality rule
- tarpitting a dangerous foe with zombies is gone, thanks to the Give ground rule (the target will win the fight, detach from zombies, likely fly away = its no use)
- you cannot plan your fights ahead, counting on your unbreakable units to stay and fight the battle of attrition for you, exacty because of Give ground rule
- casting spells in armour is gone
- 2 4+ ward saves are gone
- taking numerous chaff units like 3 units of 2 bats, 3 units of single Spirit host is gone
- 4+ Regen from Varghulf is gone
- natural AP from high Strength from all previous editions is gone, basically without proper weapon you cannot do a thing with your Str 5 against high armour save

Cheers,
V.

Well, the flammable still only suffers from burning attacks. Your opponent wont likely spam this. If he does - he's cheesy and u should spam banshees and terrorgheists and scream him to dust.

I believe IoN is better now when its an ability and with a lvl 4 necro with spectre u can cast it 2x per turn with the reroll w a bsb.

Ofc u can raise more zombies than ur startsize with IoN because they are "the newly dead".

Overall I think that VC are superstrong with banshees using wailing dirge and lvl 4 necromancer with necromancy lowering the opponents LD and healing blood knights like nothing.
Well the vampires are not like they were, still not useless.

"Raise dead" spell is to weak with 2d3 zombies. Should be much more and some skellies option aswell..

Yes the give ground rule suck for undead, the undead concept dies with that one.

 

[Veland]

Well, the flammable still only suffers from burning attacks. Your opponent wont likely spam this. If he does - he's cheesy and u should spam banshees and terrorgheists and scream him to dust.

I believe IoN is better now when its an ability and with a lvl 4 necro with spectre u can cast it 2x per turn with the reroll w a bsb.

Ofc u can raise more zombies than ur startsize with IoN because they are "the newly dead".

Overall I think that VC are superstrong with banshees using wailing dirge and lvl 4 necromancer with necromancy lowering the opponents LD and healing blood knights like nothing.
Well the vampires are not like they were, still not useless.

"Raise dead" spell is to weak with 2d3 zombies. Should be much more and some skellies option aswell..

Yes the give ground rule suck for undead, the undead concept dies with that one.

Yes only flaming attacks cause Regen on Flammable targets to not work. Burning blade* - 5 pts, Ring of Ruin -> 30 pts for BS with 2D6 Str 4 flaming. Blazing banner -> 25 pts. They can easily spam you with flaming hits for no cost.
Though doesn't it seem strange, that you would have your Regen against a Flaming attack, if you were not Flammable?
In 6th edition Flaming just negated Regen, on any target. Perhaps there is something I did not grasp in the rules now?

In TK army, there is an addiitonal rule now, that you suffer an additional wound from burning on 4+, if you're Dry as dust. Similarly easy to abuse by the enemy.

In theory, you can bring back more models in one unit from the dead wit new IoN, but old IoN was auto targeting any of your units in 6/12/18 range around the caster.
Now it is one unit in a fixed range. Secondly, in my first and last TOW battle, I failed to pass on Ld 8 of my master necro 4 times. Everything crumbled. So, how's that reliable?

I did not try anything that had Wailing dirge yet. I avoided Terrorgheists even in 8th because they seemed too cheesy for my taste.

Raise dead should at least have that "caster level" to add to the number of raised models.

How do you interpret the rules to allow "healing" and "resurrecting fallen warriors" to mean that they can increase Zombies beyond starting size, without the unit suffering lost wounds prior to IoN being "cast"?
I've met the interpretation that you must suffer wounds first, in between every IoN "cast" on them. Though I would like to use it as it had been used previously, just raising more and more of them (20->40) while waiting for the enemy to come to me.

 

[Sception]

Some things to keep in mind:

Invocation healing from necromancer requires a leadership test, which our BSB provides a re-roll to. This makes that healing incredibly reliable, and let you generate a ton of free wounds for your army. A wight lord BSB is sturdy & points efficient unit that gets you those important leadership rerolls while also unlocking a unit of grave guard as core, which IMO makes them one of your first grabs for most vamp count armies

The biggest beneficiaries of this are zombies (which can be healed above starting count so there's something to heal if you go first in round one - just keep in mind that they cap at 40), grave guard (the most elite unit we have that get full infantry healing) and blood knights (the strongest unit we have that can still heal multiple models at a time), So I would typically look to build around one or more of those units. Blood knights in particular are sick. A unit of 7+ with full plate is brutal, and if you get off even a single heal per game restoring like 4 models that's devastating. Even from a pure points perspective, that's a 200 points swing, as though you started 10% up on the entire match, and you could conceivably pull that off multiple times in a game! on a unit that most would not argue was dramatically overpriced even before you count healing. About the only reason not to take a big blood knight unit is that the terrorgheist is actually properly frightning in TOW, especially considering our access to leadership debuffs through the Necromancy lore, making it equally worth those limited rare points. I suppose hexwraiths, as hard hitting ethereal cav, also make a strong case for those rare points. Honestly a bit spoiled for choice there.

Skeletons aren't so much worse than zombies that you should feel bad for running them if you prefer them aesthetically, but zombies are more points efficient, and if you're looking for an infantry unit that can fight a bit and not just tar pit then ghouls or preferably grave guard seem the better choice, plus the ability to overheal means you really should take at least one unit of zombies in case you get the first turn. Likewise Vargheists are extremely mobile and hard hitting, so if you want to use them you aren't exactly shooting yourself in the foot, but their relative fragility for the points and frenzy making them difficult to control makes blood knights just look better. Again similarly ghouls aren't at all bad, but imo have a hard time stacking up to grave guard in the 'infantry that can actually hurt something' department. So that's a handful of units that are maybe outcompeted in their roles/slots/points, but they aren't bad.

Most of our other units are solid - a mix of good utility and efficient & maneuverable chaff.

About the only unit that does kind of look bad is the crypt horrors - just too pricey for their limited durability and lack of armor penetration. Which sucks if you like strigoi/ghouls, but only one bad unit out of the entire grand army is pretty good all things considered.

While vampire lords/counts have lost a step compared to 7th and 8th edition fantasy, they've still got a pretty impressive stat line, nice upgrades, potentially some pretty decent spellcasting ability - especially if there's a mortis engine nearby - and a vamp count on zombie dragon is up there with the better dragon heroes. Ghoul King on royal terrorgheist, especially with the healing sword, is also quite viable, especially with necromancy support from a master necromancer debuffing leadership for screams.

On the other hand, with level 4 spellcasting being so important, there's much to say for the necromancer lord, particularly on a mortis engine which brings in dragon-adjacent maneuverability, resiliance, and hitting power along with screams, a +1 to cast aura, a +1 to movement aura, 360 degree line of sight for spellcasting. Rules as written currently the auras stack with themselves, so double-mortis is arguably one of the scarier armies in the game with a pair of level 4 wizards making casting rolls at +6 behind a wall of movement 6 grave guard with a wight lord bsb that reliably heal 10+ models per battle round (potentially with 5+ regen saves from drakkenhoff banner), BUT I expect errata to stop the aura from stacking with itself sooner or later, so while I'd absolutely rush out to buy a mortis engine if you don't have one, I'd maybe wait before getting a second one. Even without the second engine, just putting a foot or magic carpet master necro next to the one engine in that formation is still a lot for the opponent to deal with.

If you do go with master necromancer on mortis, there are multiple build options. illusion and sword of kings with a spell or lore familiar to make doppleganger likely or automatic for a really brutal offense, or go for necromancy and stack up casting & defensive upgrades to focus on leadership debuff & screams, along with additional screams from banshees and/or terrorgheists. I heard a double mortis, double banshee, double terrorgheist list won a recent event, using leadership debuff spells to set up for screams and the reserve move spell - reliably cast on the higher spell value due to double mortis aura, to let the screaming units move, scream, and move again to keep damage up while avoiding charge arcs or even hopping behind terrain to avoid line of fire. I haven't actually seen the list or a proper event report though, so I can't fully vouch for it, and even if true again I'm skepticle of double mortis stacking for long.

We have some very powerful faction magic items as well. Not all of them are good of course, but we have at least one or two solid utility options if not outright game changers in each category, which is more than most other factions can say, legacy or otherwise.

In many ways vamp counts should be one of the stronger factions out there, especially among legacy factions, and if the event results aren't showing that yet I'd say you just need to give the game some more time for the meta to stable and for people to start building armies tailored to TOW's rules, rather than just fielding rebased WHFB forces. As with the game more broadly, it's important to remember that the shift from 8th to TOW is as big as the shift from 5th to 6th was. Yes a lot of the fundamentals remained the same, but in all the particulars this is a new game, so the comparison to other TOW factions is way more important the comparison to the previous version of Vamp Counts.

It's sort of like the situation with magic. People were initially saying that magic was dramatically weaker in TOW than 8e because you don't see a single spell wiping entire units - sometimes multiple units - off the table. But a little bit of playing around with TOW showed that magic is still immensely powerful, outright game deciding, and any army that can't field at least one level 4 wizard is going to have problems. I think it will eventually prove the same with vampire counts as a faction. Not doing the same things, at least not in the same ways, but what it does now instead is still terrifying.

...................

As for the specific army above, looks mostly alright to me. I'd trade the smaller unit of skeletons for like 30, 32ish zombies for reasons already mentioned, and yeah the... biting blade? the one with -2 ap baked in. that's probably better for your count than the ogre blade - unless you wanted to spring for the lifedrinker. And while I understand wanting that 4++, you could probably survive with a 5++ from talisman of protection, saving a bunch of points. That might save you enough points for a blood knight, if not you could kit out your count with some extra stuff. The +1 wound or beguile vampire powers are great on a dragon count. or an extra spell level or two, maybe switching to illusion on the count to threaten doppleganger. Or maybe a magic banner on the grave guard. Room to tinker is what I'm saying.

 

[Veland]

Some things to keep in mind:

Invocation healing from necromancer requires a leadership test, which our BSB provides a re-roll to. This makes that healing incredibly reliable, and let you generate a ton of free wounds for your army. A wight lord BSB is sturdy & points efficient unit that gets you those important leadership rerolls while also unlocking a unit of grave guard as core, which IMO makes them one of your first grabs for most vamp count armies

The biggest beneficiaries of this are zombies (which can be healed above starting count so there's something to heal if you go first in round one - just keep in mind that they cap at 40), grave guard (the most elite unit we have that get full infantry healing) and blood knights (the strongest unit we have that can still heal multiple models at a time), So I would typically look to build around one or more of those units. Blood knights in particular are sick. A unit of 7+ with full plate is brutal, and if you get off even a single heal per game restoring like 4 models that's devastating. Even from a pure points perspective, that's a 200 points swing, as though you started 10% up on the entire match, and you could conceivably pull that off multiple times in a game! on a unit that most would not argue was dramatically overpriced even before you count healing. About the only reason not to take a big blood knight unit is that the terrorgheist is actually properly frightning in TOW, especially considering our access to leadership debuffs through the Necromancy lore, making it equally worth those limited rare points. I suppose hexwraiths, as hard hitting ethereal cav, also make a strong case for those rare points. Honestly a bit spoiled for choice there.

Skeletons aren't so much worse than zombies that you should feel bad for running them if you prefer them aesthetically, but zombies are more points efficient, and if you're looking for an infantry unit that can fight a bit and not just tar pit then ghouls or preferably grave guard seem the better choice, plus the ability to overheal means you really should take at least one unit of zombies in case you get the first turn. Likewise Vargheists are extremely mobile and hard hitting, so if you want to use them you aren't exactly shooting yourself in the foot, but their relative fragility for the points and frenzy making them difficult to control makes blood knights just look better. Again similarly ghouls aren't at all bad, but imo have a hard time stacking up to grave guard in the 'infantry that can actually hurt something' department. So that's a handful of units that are maybe outcompeted in their roles/slots/points, but they aren't bad.

Most of our other units are solid - a mix of good utility and efficient & maneuverable chaff.

About the only unit that does kind of look bad is the crypt horrors - just too pricey for their limited durability and lack of armor penetration. Which sucks if you like strigoi/ghouls, but only one bad unit out of the entire grand army is pretty good all things considered.

While vampire lords/counts have lost a step compared to 7th and 8th edition fantasy, they've still got a pretty impressive stat line, nice upgrades, potentially some pretty decent spellcasting ability - especially if there's a mortis engine nearby - and a vamp count on zombie dragon is up there with the better dragon heroes. Ghoul King on royal terrorgheist, especially with the healing sword, is also quite viable, especially with necromancy support from a master necromancer debuffing leadership for screams.

On the other hand, with level 4 spellcasting being so important, there's much to say for the necromancer lord, particularly on a mortis engine which brings in dragon-adjacent maneuverability, resiliance, and hitting power along with screams, a +1 to cast aura, a +1 to movement aura, 360 degree line of sight for spellcasting. Rules as written currently the auras stack with themselves, so double-mortis is arguably one of the scarier armies in the game with a pair of level 4 wizards making casting rolls at +6 behind a wall of movement 6 grave guard with a wight lord bsb that reliably heal 10+ models per battle round (potentially with 5+ regen saves from drakkenhoff banner), BUT I expect errata to stop the aura from stacking with itself sooner or later, so while I'd absolutely rush out to buy a mortis engine if you don't have one, I'd maybe wait before getting a second one. Even without the second engine, just putting a foot or magic carpet master necro next to the one engine in that formation is still a lot for the opponent to deal with.

If you do go with master necromancer on mortis, there are multiple build options. illusion and sword of kings with a spell or lore familiar to make doppleganger likely or automatic for a really brutal offense, or go for necromancy and stack up casting & defensive upgrades to focus on leadership debuff & screams, along with additional screams from banshees and/or terrorgheists. I heard a double mortis, double banshee, double terrorgheist list won a recent event, using leadership debuff spells to set up for screams and the reserve move spell - reliably cast on the higher spell value due to double mortis aura, to let the screaming units move, scream, and move again to keep damage up while avoiding charge arcs or even hopping behind terrain to avoid line of fire. I haven't actually seen the list or a proper event report though, so I can't fully vouch for it, and even if true again I'm skepticle of double mortis stacking for long.

We have some very powerful faction magic items as well. Not all of them are good of course, but we have at least one or two solid utility options if not outright game changers in each category, which is more than most other factions can say, legacy or otherwise.

In many ways vamp counts should be one of the stronger factions out there, especially among legacy factions, and if the event results aren't showing that yet I'd say you just need to give the game some more time for the meta to stable and for people to start building armies tailored to TOW's rules, rather than just fielding rebased WHFB forces. As with the game more broadly, it's important to remember that the shift from 8th to TOW is as big as the shift from 5th to 6th was. Yes a lot of the fundamentals remained the same, but in all the particulars this is a new game, so the comparison to other TOW factions is way more important the comparison to the previous version of Vamp Counts.

It's sort of like the situation with magic. People were initially saying that magic was dramatically weaker in TOW than 8e because you don't see a single spell wiping entire units - sometimes multiple units - off the table. But a little bit of playing around with TOW showed that magic is still immensely powerful, outright game deciding, and any army that can't field at least one level 4 wizard is going to have problems. I think it will eventually prove the same with vampire counts as a faction. Not doing the same things, at least not in the same ways, but what it does now instead is still terrifying.

...................

As for the specific army above, looks mostly alright to me. I'd trade the smaller unit of skeletons for like 30, 32ish zombies for reasons already mentioned, and yeah the... biting blade? the one with -2 ap baked in. that's probably better for your count than the ogre blade - unless you wanted to spring for the lifedrinker. And while I understand wanting that 4++, you could probably survive with a 5++ from talisman of protection, saving a bunch of points. That might save you enough points for a blood knight, if not you could kit out your count with some extra stuff. The +1 wound or beguile vampire powers are great on a dragon count. or an extra spell level or two, maybe switching to illusion on the count to threaten doppleganger. Or maybe a magic banner on the grave guard. Room to tinker is what I'm saying.

1. Yes, that wight lord BSB -> IoN Ld check reroll -> +Sceptre de Noirot -> potential of extra wounds on pricey units like Blood knights, crypt horrors, black knights.
2. Yes GG heal like skeletons and zombies, you get better models back when healing GG for the same price, and wight lord BSB enables one unit of them as core. Skeletons have 2 advantages over zombies: fight in extra rank, take magic banner worth even 50 pts.
2.1. Are you certain that Zombies raised with Raise Dead can be increased above their starting number with IoN, without them having to suffer wounds prior to IoN cast?
3. Crypt horrors have poison, S4 and AP 1, not bad IMHO. Though more expensive than in 8th ed. T5 and W3 gives them good survivability, though no armour and Regen at only 6+ is too low. What hurts is their low Initiative of 2.
4. It feels bad when you as undead, must field weird combos of units, while the enemy like Bretonnia, just take what they always have been taking, and you still struggle to match them. VC have been greatly nerfed. IMHO average armies of each faction should be equally competitive, not forcing VC to go to extremely cheesy list to be just on equal terms with others.

 

[Sception]

2.1. Are you certain that Zombies raised with Raise Dead can be increased above their starting number with IoN, without them having to suffer wounds prior to IoN cast?
3. Crypt horrors have poison, S4 and AP 1, not bad IMHO. Though more expensive than in 8th ed. T5 and W3 gives them good survivability, though no armour and Regen at only 6+ is too low. What hurts is their low Initiative of 2.
4. It feels bad when you as undead, must field weird combos of units, while the enemy like Bretonnia, just take what they always have been taking, and you still struggle to match them. VC have been greatly nerfed. IMHO average armies of each faction should be equally competitive, not forcing VC to go to extremely cheesy list to be just on equal terms with others.

2. Yes, see "the Newly Dead" special rule. They can be healed above their starting strength, but not above their maximum unit size of 40.

3. There are many things that hurt crypt horrors, but it mostly comes down to costing too many points for what they contribute. Either they need to contribute more (another point of ap, another point of regen, another point of initiative), or cost less. If you don't think they're as bad as I do that's great, but even if I'm right, again, a single dud out of an entire book isn't that bad

4. Warhammer undead have always been about combining units and abilities into more than the sum of their isolated parts. almost none of our army has ever worked on their own. Our unbreakable hoards are weak and fragile and quickly crumble to dust without healing and buff/debuff support from necromancers and offensive support from embedded heroes or flank chargers. Our elite units rely on our hoards for static combat res and our chaff to be able to set up advantageous charges and avoid devastating counter charges. Vampire count cheese doesn't put us on equal footing to others, it puts us above them - at least above most of them. And we've always been a faction that builds combos on spells (with both debuffs to enemy units and buffs to our own being common features of necromantic magic over the years), items, and bloodline traits. Leadership bombing + screams has also often been side theme / build option for the army. None of this is new.

About the only bit that I'd agree is cheesy & should maybe be avoided is stacking the same buff aura a la double mortis engine, not least of which because that sort of cheese doesn't put us on par with other lists, but well above most of them. That's not the kind of thing we "need to do to compete", it's the kind of thing we can do if we don't want our opponents to have a chance.

Listen to these folks talk about vamp counts over on the Old World Charm podcast:

That Old World Charm: Episode 15 Vampire Counts Are Busted | That Old World Charm

In this episode of That Old World Charm: Adam, Falcon, and Danny go through the Vampire Counts index and answer the question: 'What makes them so good?' If you like what you hear, consider joining us on our Patreon where you get early access to episodes, our private discord server, and a second...

oldworldcharm.podbean.com

The broken stuff like double mortis is called out /as/ broken, and they harp on it a bit overmuch imo, but listen to them talk about everything else. It's all good. The whole list is good. We really are in a great position.

More typical and restrained Vamp Count lists like the one in this thread aren't at a disadvantage, they're playing the game with everybody else, on par or a bit ahead - compared to most of the other legacy factions more than a bit. We're talking vamp count lists playing with the usual level 4, casting and dispelling in line with everyone else who isn't tzeentch demons or mortuary cult tomb kings. Only the vamp counts also have some of the best chaff in the game, some of the best tar pits / static res units in the game, elite infantry and cavalry that are barely a step behind the best in the game - until you remember they can be healed and suddenly they're out in front again. Combine that with some of the best faction magic items and spells in the game, fighty heroes that aren't way out in front like they used to be but can still absolutely go toe to toe on par with the other top end guys out there AND can be halfway decent wizards while they're doing it, great monsters, ethereal units....

We really are in a good place, just play it out, you'll see. Wins aren't free, but we're not struggling to reach for them either. Again, don't get too hung up on comparisons to WHFB, it's a new (old) world out there.

 

[Toai]

I agree that the mortis engine, scream heavy list is cheesy, and is going to be probably get nerfed.
Also, its very nice to have GG as a core choice now. Btw I updated my list thanks to all your input, thanks for that! This is it:

===
Vampire Counts [1997 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Vampire Counts
===

++ Characters [775 pts] ++

Vampire Count [420 pts]
- Hand weapon
- No armour
- Zombie Dragon
- Talisman of Protection
- Biting Blade
- Dark Magic

Master Necromancer [225 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- General
- On foot
- Sceptre Of De Noirot
- Cloak Of Mist & Shadows
- Dark Magic

Necromantic Acolyte [60 pts]
- Hand weapon
- On foot
- Necromancy

Wight Lord [70 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- Battle Standard Bearer
- On foot
- Charmed Shield

++ Core Units [575 pts] ++

30 Skeleton Warriors [165 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Shield
- Skeleton Champion
- Standard bearer
- Musician

26 Grave Guard [370 pts]
- Great weapons (replace shields)
- Heavy armour
- Seneschal
- Standard bearer [Standard Of Hellish Vigour]
- Musician

5 Dire Wolves [40 pts]
- Claws and Fangs (Hand weapons)

++ Special Units [152 pts] ++

5 Black Knights [152 pts]
- Lances
- Skeletal Hooves
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- Barding
- Hell Knight
- Standard bearer

++ Rare Units [495 pts] ++

Terrorgheist [205 pts]
- Filth-encrusted talons
- Rancid Maw
- Calloused Hide (light armor)

6 Blood Knights [290 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Iron-Shod Hooves
- Full Plate Armour
- Shield
- Barding
- Kastellan [Charmed Shield]
- Standard bearer
- Musician

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[Old World Builder - Army builder for Warhammer: The Old World and Warhammer Fantasy Battles]

 

[Veland]

Did you fight any battle with this list?

 

[Sception]

revised list looks pretty good. I'd probably trade the black knights for 30 zombies plus five more dire wolves or a couple fell bats.

Or maybe trade the black knights for just 25 zombies, no extra wolves, & use the spare points to bulk out the vamp lord's spellcasting now that they're not wearing armor; or maybe give them beguile or the +1 wound power; or maybe give the bsb the +1 regen banner.

or just keep the black knights if they're working for you.

I also prefer illusion or necromancy to dark magic, but that's something you can play around with & decide for yourself.

 

[Toai]

Veland,
I played 1 game vs a dwarf battleline, which my list crushed do to them beeing quite fast + constant healing, though I wonder how if would fare vs a more infantry heavy list.

About the 1 wound vampire power, I think thats a trap personally. It costs 50 points, and mathwise +1 ward save, or even a healing potion for a just 35 points (+1d3 wounds heal), seems better (which is still not worth it tbh).

The zombies + extra wolves might be a better choice. Depends on the matchup I guess. Love tinkering though..

 

[Sception]

Dwarfs are in a difficult place. Where most factions are defined primarily by their strengths, dwarfs are defined at least as much by their weaknesses, and those weaknesses are BAD weaknesses in this version of the game. Like, what's hot right now? Big flying monsters, max level mage lords, fast maneuverable stuff, exactly the things dwarfs define themselves by *not* having as the slow, all infantry, no magic, no monsters faction. Hopefully their arcane journal brings them some meaningful new tools.

The vamps vs. dwarves match up feels especially one sided.

Granted the game is still new, people may just not know how to play dwarves effectively yet. I don't want GW to knee-jerk a fix before the problem's fully established, but yeah if I had to point to one faction and say 'those guys are going to need some help' it would be dwarves before any of the legacy factions.

 

[Veland]

Toai
Congrats on your victory When dwarfs field artillery and guns, it is easier for vamps than when they field heavy infantry and gyrocopters. Fighting dwarf lord is still a tough nut to crack, if they have one.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Yep, TOW at the moment is a uphill battle for dawi.
GIven it's one of my army, i should look at them to see if i manage to build a decent list...