Base size question

[Regis Von Carstein]

I am to play my HE opponent again. Last time he used a dragon mage on a sun dragon.

His dragon was placed on an ogre-sized base (like a fell bat).

I look at our Zombie Dragon/TG and we are on a massive base that is as big as a ranked infantry blok.

Is this the norm or is his dragon on a base that is way too small?

 

[maelstrom808]

It varies with the big critters. The current HE Dragon comes on a chariot base if I remember correctly. The old one might have used a smaller base.

 

[Regis Von Carstein]

Chariot base is 100x50? So should I ask him to change bases from his 40x40 or is he OK using it?

 

[maelstrom808]

I'm a recent convert from 40k so not sure if it's handled the samein whfb, but generally you are told to use the base the model was supplied with.

 

[countwuzzy]

Which model is it? GW has stated that old models, with the base they were provided with are legal. If it's the old 5th edition model. I think it was on a 40mm x 40mm.. But if he has put the new plastic kit gliding off the rock, onto a 40mm base. He is cheating. If it's a 3rd party model or converted from another kit. I'd make him switch to the most up to date base(chariot size)

 

[John Rainbow]

I have an old GW dragon. It came on a 40x40 mm sq and is metal. It looks like this:
http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/realm/8940/imrik.jpg

GW says you go with the base the model comes on so RAW your opponent is ok to do this. I got a lot of grief for using mine once so its now on a 50x50 mm sq. The new dragon is on a 50x100 mm base.

 

[Regis Von Carstein]

Yes, that is the model he has....

His star dragon, with 7 across the board... is no bigger than my fell bat... sigh

 

[estwheadn]

ok so I believe that he is technically 'cheating' because that model is imrik, a special character. This implies that he is proxying imrik as a mage on a dragon. Generally you can't proxy one model for another if the base sizes are different. It would be a different story if it was an old mage character on dragon so make sure it is the imrik model/dragon first before bringing it up

 

[Rizzo]

I have the OLD zombie dragon that I am using for my hierotitan currently.

 

[John Rainbow]

ok so I believe that he is technically 'cheating' because that model is imrik, a special character. This implies that he is proxying imrik as a mage on a dragon. Generally you can't proxy one model for another if the base sizes are different. It would be a different story if it was an old mage character on dragon so make sure it is the imrik model/dragon first before bringing it up

Untrue. At the time that model existed it was the only HE dragon model. You could then use it for whatever you wanted - I disagree that you would have to use the new model. There are also no rules on proxying, only what you club will and will not accept. Given that a new dragon costs $55 or so, I can see why someone would use their older and maybe even painted model rather than buy and paint a new one. I for one would also not force anyone to buy a new model. Going from a 50x100 to a 50x50 really isn't that big of a deal.

 

[estwheadn]

Untrue. At the time that model existed it was the only HE dragon model. You could then use it for whatever you wanted - I disagree that you would have to use the new model. There are also no rules on proxying

I believe that you misunderstood me. I was saying that if you are going to proxy, then the base size needs to be the same. Not that you are not allowed to proxy. I never said that you would have to get the new model, just that the base size needs to be the same as the new model. Although getting the new model works too lol

Given that a new dragon costs $55 or so, I can see why someone would use their older and maybe even painted model rather than buy and paint a new one. I for one would also not force anyone to buy a new model. Going from a 50x100 to a 50x50 really isn't that big of a deal.

I never implied forcing anyone to buy a new model.

 

[Smogg]

That model is a character riding a dragon. The mount is not being proxied since its a dragon so it's ok to field it on its original base.
With regards to if proxy models must be on correct base size... I don't know if it even makes sense to talk about legal base size when proxying. It's not really legal in the rules to proxy, so if you field an ogre or manticore as a dragon, then its gentlemans agreement with the opponent in any case. If you proxy your army, likely some of those modelled are borrowed too, so you dont want to re-base your friends miniatures anyway. But maybe there are some spare bases to place them on top of to simulate the base of what you proxy. I guess if you proxy models the whole idea is to get as close to the original model as possible in order to evaluate if you want to buy it for your army.
Personally some of my models are many editions old, and I would certanly not want to re-base any of my models. I think it's an important principle that you can buy your model, paint it, base it, seal it and consider it done. Even if GW release new version of the model, your finished model can still be used.
I also have the old nagash. But he is too ugly to re-use even though his base is smaller.

 

[John Rainbow]

I believe that you misunderstood me. I was saying that if you are going to proxy, then the base size needs to be the same.

As stated he is not proxying. He is using the dragon model he has with the base it came on to be a dragon model. It just happens that a 50 mm or 40 mm sq or whatever is smaller than that in the modern model. I don't think that just because a new design comes out with a different base that you should be forced to change yours to the new size. This is potentially a lot of work in some cases and may also cause damage to the model.

Also, I didn't mean to offend. Sorry if my comments came off a bit forcefully.

That model is a character riding a dragon. The mount is not being proxied since its a dragon so it's ok to field it on its original base.
With regards to if proxy models must be on correct base size... I don't know if it even makes sense to talk about legal base size when proxying. It's not really legal in the rules to proxy, so if you field an ogre or manticore as a dragon, then its gentlemans agreement with the opponent in any case. If you proxy your army, likely some of those modelled are borrowed too, so you dont want to re-base your friends miniatures anyway. But maybe there are some spare bases to place them on top of to simulate the base of what you proxy. I guess if you proxy models the whole idea is to get as close to the original model as possible in order to evaluate if you want to buy it for your army.
Personally some of my models are many editions old, and I would certanly not want to re-base any of my models. I think it's an important principle that you can buy your model, paint it, base it, seal it and consider it done. Even if GW release new version of the model, your finished model can still be used.
I also have the old nagash. But he is too ugly to re-use even though his base is smaller.

Good points.

 

[estwheadn]

I believe that you misunderstood me. I was saying that if you are going to proxy, then the base size needs to be the same. Not that you are not allowed to proxy. I never said that you would have to get the new model, just that the base size needs to be the same as the new model. Although getting the new model works too lol



I never implied forcing anyone to buy a new model.

That makes sense. With regard to proxy rules, we all know that, if you wanted, you could play this game entirely with bases. With the models on top of them not making TOO much impact on how the game is PLAYED (other that LOS which can be 'imagined'). IMO it would be totally lame not having the models but if we agree that really it's only the base that matters then I think we see why it's important to have similar base sizes when proxying. Not that I care really. If an opponent wanted to use his hero on foot as if it was actually on a dragon that would be fine by me. Except if he was attacking my unit we would pretent he's in btb with a good portion of it and not just the 2 dudes in front of him.

 

[GhoulKing505]

Proxying is great! I started playing warhammer with the brb, the army book, and paper grid squares I would print out. It gave me a chance to test out different armies. It's how I came to my decision to collect and play vampire counts. I went through tons of different armies (bretonnia, ogres, dwarves, as well as orcs and goblins) before finally settling on vampire counts. I'd suggest this to anyone who wants to get into the hobby. It gives them a good idea of what they actually want in an army and they are able to pick what they want before they spend a small fortune.

 

[John Rainbow]

Proxying is great! I started playing warhammer with the brb, the army book, and paper grid squares I would print out. It gave me a chance to test out different armies. It's how I came to my decision to collect and play vampire counts. I went through tons of different armies (bretonnia, ogres, dwarves, as well as orcs and goblins) before finally settling on vampire counts. I'd suggest this to anyone who wants to get into the hobby. It gives them a good idea of what they actually want in an army and they are able to pick what they want before they spend a small fortune.

True that!

I'm not against proxying at all, just the idea of having to change base sizes on old models when a new one comes out as suggested by @estwheadn.

 

[The Sun King]

GW has stated that the Hobby comes first - so people shouldn't change bases when new models comes out.

 

[Aedin]

sigh.... I know its legal... I know its original to the model... so if I run into it i will bite my lip...

But personally

I believe the rules were written for the modern base size and do update the bases if rules/models change. Especially if that base is bigger in size I just look at it as an opportunity to have plenty of room to get fancy with the base modeling

 

[Regis Von Carstein]

I just find it funny that his Star Dragon is on a fell bat size base and my TG is on a base size the size of a unit Despite the Star Dragon being bigger in the fluff (I think)

But I guess you can explain it "fluff" wise that the star dragon is better at "gliding" and so presents a smaller target to ground units. As we know, there is no real flying in WHFB due to obvious reasons

 

[hairyjeff]

So…(spanner flying at the works!) …those of us with really old models ,which had no bases, can put them on whatever we want. Not really, but you can see how problems can arise when GW are inconsistent with rules and models. I always put mine on current bases, but know others who don't.