AoS - 3rd Battleline options

[The Sun King]

I really like the 3.0 rules. And one thing in particular has gotten my mind going the last few days:

The reinforced unit rule states that only battleline units can be reinforced twice. BUT! Our different subfactions gives us access to new types of battleline units. So I'm thinking of bringing twice reinforced Vargheists for instance... Should be a pretty scary unit.

Have any of you tried out combos like this?

 

[Raizi]

Nice idea, but two words: Unit Cohesion. This really hampers plans when building big deathstars nowadays. Blood Knights for example, with their bigger base, they are really hard to wield in units of 10 to get maximum damage output or maneuverability, since each model has to be within an inch of two models from the same unit. I believe even once reinfoced Vargheists will suffer from this since they have over 5 models and you would be forced to keep the unit in two ranks until one of them dies.

I am struggling with 10 Dire Wolves already and they aren't even reinforced. I think the only units I would reinforce twice would be Skellies and Grave Guard due to their smaller bases.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Nice idea, but two words: Unit Cohesion. This really hampers plans when building big deathstars nowadays. Blood Knights for example, with their bigger base, they are really hard to wield in units of 10 to get maximum damage output or maneuverability, since each model has to be within an inch of two models from the same unit. I believe even once reinfoced Vargheists will suffer from this since they have over 5 models and you would be forced to keep the unit in two ranks until one of them dies.

I am struggling with 10 Dire Wolves already and they aren't even reinforced. I think the only units I would reinforce twice would be Skellies and Grave Guard due to their smaller bases.

That's absolutely true, plus i would say that ATM the game is pushing toward a meta with no hordes:
- the limitations in number of reiforced units hampers the old "swarm the battlefield" tactic
- there are many new abilities that are literally horde killer (the "Da Black Pit" spell, the tail attack of the new dragon and so on).

There's one thing that, at least for us, can still make viable a large unit of big dudes (be them Vargheist, Spirit Hosts, whatever). Other armies suffer from the same limitation for their melee elite unit, however we can raise ours and hit hard always. The models in the rear and on the sides are just ablative wounds that we regenerate and to wipe away the whole unit is more difficult, even if we're charged (because also the opponent will struggle in optimizing its attacks).
with 5 models you optimize the ratio points / offensive potential, but If the opponent kills via magic or shooting 2-3 models in a 5 man units, it's fairly easy to charge and wipe the rest away. WIth 10 models you're not paying points for additional offensive power, but for increased durability.

 

[Raizi]

There's one thing that, at least for us, can still make viable a large unit of big dudes (be them Vargheist, Spirit Hosts, whatever). Other armies suffer from the same limitation for their melee elite unit, however we can raise ours and hit hard always. The models in the rear and on the sides are just ablative wounds that we regenerate and to wipe away the whole unit is more difficult, even if we're charged (because also the opponent will struggle in optimizing its attacks).
with 5 models you optimize the ratio points / offensive potential, but If the opponent kills via magic or shooting 2-3 models in a 5 man units, it's fairly easy to charge and wipe the rest away. WIth 10 models you're not paying points for additional offensive power, but for increased durability.

This again applies only to units, that are summonable in the first place. So Vargheists and Blood Knights are out of question still.

 

[Unas the slayer]

This again applies only to units, that are summonable in the first place. So Vargheists and Blood Knights are out of question still.

I knew about blood knights, but i was remembering wrong the Vargheist.
Sigh... i should check armies that i don't own.

 

[The Sun King]

Nice idea, but two words: Unit Cohesion. This really hampers plans when building big deathstars nowadays. Blood Knights for example, with their bigger base, they are really hard to wield in units of 10 to get maximum damage output or maneuverability, since each model has to be within an inch of two models from the same unit. I believe even once reinfoced Vargheists will suffer from this since they have over 5 models and you would be forced to keep the unit in two ranks until one of them dies.

I am struggling with 10 Dire Wolves already and they aren't even reinforced. I think the only units I would reinforce twice would be Skellies and Grave Guard due to their smaller bases.

Good point, in general, however I think you are missing a couple of things about Vargheists: they can deep strike, they can fly and they have 12" of move. Between these abilities I think it is rather doable to throw 9 og them in the face of an enemy unit without losing out on too many attacks.

 

[Raizi]

Good point, in general, however I think you are missing a couple of things about Vargheists: they can deep strike, they can fly and they have 12" of move. Between these abilities I think it is rather doable to throw 9 og them in the face of an enemy unit without losing out in too many attacks.

These do nothing to their base size and unit coherency restrictions. You could wield that unit either as a block of 3x3, two ranks 5 front 4 back or two ranks 7 front 2 back at both edges. All of these formations hold unit coherency. The problems are not so big in the movement phase or charge phase (depending on terrain) but they pile up (pun intended) in the combat phase, because pile-in moves and removing casualties start messing with your unit coherency if you try to max out the damage output. And if you try to max unit coherency, you have a lot of expensive Vargheists standing around, since their melee range doesn't allow them to hit from the 2nd rank. So most likely you either lose attacks or straight models due to unit coherency. Either way, I think you are wasting points building a huge unit like this.

Even as they fly, they still pile-in 3". Their bases are already 2" in diameter so you won't be able to make any of those dirty tricks that Nighthaunt can pull during pile-in.

It would be great it units could perform a free 3" reform after wiping out an enemy unit. That would open a lot of options for bigger, hard hitting units.

 

[The Sun King]

Yeah I get it - you will lose out on some attacks, but I was mainly looking at 9 vargheists for staying power. Also I'm not saying the unit is particularly great either, I'm just trying to think out of the box a bit and see what options we have.