Beating this chaos army

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I would have to say this is the worst battle I have ever had, against anyone. My vampires I know are not unbeatable but nor do they lose alot. This is the first time in a long time I have lost in a all out massacare. Especially to a full core army list.

2000 pt game chaos fielded
2 hell cannons
6 units of 40 maurders with flails full commands. (wow)
1 Chaos lord with the giant blade.

I fielded
my vampire lord balenced as combat and caster
level 3 with blood drinker and heavy armour with second weapon
Red Fury
hatred
Konrad
both bunkered in a 30 graveguard unit with banner of the barrows

2 caster vamps extra level of magic with dark acoylte and one armed with tomb blade. Both having two hand weapons heavy armour.
Both bunkered in 29 strong skeleton units with spears.

Vulghulf is the rest of my army sometimes changed to a unit of ghouls with a little tweeking.

my entire force was decimated by turn 5. Konrad and the lord made a great showing but after there unit was flanked by two maurder units that chewed my skeletons apart it was over.

this is my second lost since 8th came out and I am not sure what I could of done to fight this. (the player is a very inexperinced and new to gaming entierly.) So from what I can tell he has a very nasty chaos army. Ive always dismissed maurders until today.
 
Under the new rules marauders are devastating(they are so cheap).The lack of widespread magical attacks makes wraiths an option.I'd use double VGs,they have good synergy.Try and bait one of the blocks into a forest(denying rank bonus),then tarpit them w/wraiths.That's very situational I know.You can't win the straight up infantry vs. infantry battle.
Maybe a black knight block w/2 VG's and wraith's supporting could assault one flank,
You must break his line at a single point,while you hold the center(the hard part).If he manages a full press with all those blocks.....:grave:
You may want to drop a hero to put more troops on the field,or mount one to accompany the black knights.
Just some ideas,it's quite a pickle.
 
Doesn't sound like he has much magical defence. If you take a Level 4, you will be able to dominate the magic phase. Getting +4 to cast is a very useful skill, especially against his +0. Keep his units occupied by slamming walls of raised zombies.....no, no that won't work.

Maybe, hmm..... oh! I know! Get a flying, ethereal, scout lord. (Any combo as long as you have ethereal) and deny his marches. I don't know about how march-denial works nowadays, but I think seeing as only one thing can kill you in his whole army (giant blade) maximise on ethereal units where possible. Unless Hellcannons are magical. (Just steer clear of them.) That way you can disrupt, say, one flank, while you take a refused flank army and hit everything on the other side. Then your entire army turns sideways and rolls up the flank, whilst a couple of units deal with the cannons.


Maybe it will work. Better than just slamming in again and again until you get really dispirited.
 
Ohh well I watched the dwarf army, A orc army and a bretonnia knight army get slaughter too. This players tactic is engaged with one set and flank. He walked through all armies he played today. The Dwarf player(my brother) and the Orc player (store Owner) being very good and very experienced players. With 6 of these blocks its a easy to do tactic. Needless to say he won all his battles. I get to replay him using another army at the end of the month.

Alot of times I remove one of the vampire thralls for alterantive parts of the army.

It is always new players who show us how horrifying fielding cheap and devastating units can be. The two cannons are not a problem for they are just cannons. Its the 6 blocks of troops with flails. His chaos lord wasnt even a problem. I never fought him, he was unable to fight free of the zombies I tarpited that unit in.

I am thinking fielding zombies to tarpit with droping konrad, possible trading my skeletons for ghouls. He doesnt use magic so I plan to use that to my advantage. It seemed the Orc shamen gave him isssues so im going to focus on that. a second vulghulf will be a good bet too.

For this game the terrain was pretty flat with a large open field in the middle. If I could bottleneck him my gravegaurd can chew maurders up they dont have any armour save. No armour or sheilds. Was doing great before getting flanked, 6 blocks of troops is hard to deal with thats for sure.

But I agree they are down right scary now. before they had been dismised as crappy core troops. Now just wow, Though it is tempting to go sylvania gun line on him and shoot him to death. (that is just cheesy.)
 
Harsh, but fair. You fielded a hero hammer list with naff all core, can't say I'm at all surprised by your whooping. As a VC player in 8th u need plent of core cos u can't rely on magic to raise more than a handful over the game. I suggest at a minimum 2 blocks of 30+ skeles, same ghouls one beast of a zombies unit. One unit 10 black knights, and one of the rare choices depending on your foe. Heroes and lords should not total more than 3 in 2,000 pts - 4 in 2,500. Finally this game has turned into what it should always have been, melée combat with large blocks of troops supported by small cavalry and small elite units. Not, I repeat, Not, small core units of 10 skeles, large units of elite, and shed loads of heroes. Hero hammer - toy hammer is at an end rejoice in Corehammer.
 
I had two spearmen unit's of 30 you should of read the army list closer. 2 units of 30 spearmen I have no idea where you got units of 10 skeletons which even in 7th or 6th was a stupid idea.

I agree dumping a hero in exchange for something else. (losing 2 of 12 games hmm my army works for the most part) I use the magic for keeping my units mostly full strength so to weather storms of battle. Unfortetnly vampire counts has to have magic to work this. If not feilding magic might as well take my empire army.

I feel in this edition knights are not the answer, I have seen knights of other armies fail wow 10 vs 30-40 troops ya numbers. For the point costs of knights I can field another unit of grave guard.

As for the army I faced. No one there could stop it even people feilding two hero's. The only one who came close was orc's.

Now on the idea it is now what it always should be yes. Great battles of core troops which make everyone rethink tactics. I think a third unit of skeletons spearmen or a second unit of graveguard if points allow would work more then zombies and ghouls.
 
Yet another case where I think Lore of Light will serve you well.

Have your caster fairly central, and cast the WS/I10 bubble. Your now striking first and hitting on 3's and he's hitting on 5's.

Cast Pha's Illumination as a bubble and that could be 6's. Plus the hellcannons need a 4+ to fire!

One of the things with the Marauders with flails is to avoid taking too many casualties on the 1st round of combat. After that their only saving grace is a decent WS, which Lore of Light counters beautifully. they'll then bs Strength 3, Toughness 3 and no save...

Ghouls would also be a good option or Hand weapon and shield skellies instead of spears? Ghouls will cause more kills and Hand weapon and shield skellies will take more hits...

Finally, you might need to shake up your deployment a bit. Have you tried a refused flank and piling all your troops to one side? Makes it harder to outflank you and manouvering all those blocks would be fairly tricky...

Just a few thoughts...
 
hmm then either he was confused on what he was using or I said wrong what he had. He was treating the flails as if they were great weapons.
striking last with +2 strength. same points either way. I agree that might of helped.

What I try to do ussually Is use my skeleton units to protect the gravegaurds flanks from what happned. I added a third skeleton unit of 30 spearmen, droped konrad and vulghulf. Like I said before Im gonna focus on breaking him with magic. The cannons are not that much of a concern.

It was intresting to see the change of army construction though. Hard fighting core units, very impressive.
 
Actually, since you're being so specific about what you're facing, as a WoC player myself I can help you.

First off, he has no magic whatsoever, and his combat is only light infantry. In addition, he has no Battle Standard and an all-round Ld of 7 (8 for the General's Bubble). I'm presuming he was full Khorne for this approach, which is a drawback in itself since it leaves him 100% defenceless against a devastating unit. In fact I think although a somewhat brutal idea, I think his army could do with a lot more utility to it - particularly warshrines (or the Lore of Shadow!) - you could come up against much harsher foes.

First some army building advice: You need to understand that you won't beat ANY WoC army whatsoever if you try to go on the defensive - Skellies are a no-no, as is anything expensive (per model, eg. Blood Knights in particular). Make a combat based army in order to beat him - a Combat Lord, and plenty of Necromancers to do the wetwork, keeping your army up, is a great start to an army. Konrad would be an effective hero choice, don't drop him, since he loves to munch on rank and file - 5 St5 attacks with re-rolls and red fury = win! Ghouls are your only option for Core choices here, and large units of infantry such as Grave Guard with Great Weapons are always preferred to units of 10 or so cavalry - he'll kill them too easily and they won't get any flanking done if he's covering the majority of the board. Besides, the Hellcannons will lol at any of our cavalry. Long story short - you won't beat him anywhere but combat, which will be the hard part; whether you like it or not he'll charge you eventually.

Any magic (other than Vampire Lore) should have a clear purpose - Death won't be useful since he has only one character, and Purple Sun vs. I4 = fail. Anything heavy hitting won't be worth using either, since he's cheap low T infantry - the likes of Heavens and the buffs from Lore of Beasts won't be worth it. If you're taking a caster, I'd suggest a Hero caster with Forbidden Lore: Lore of Fire - masses of low strength hits against an army with no magical defense whatsoever will be devastating. Other Lores could do an okay job, but not as effective.

Finally, some on-the-table advice: delay his combat as late as possible - you won't win anywhere else, but if you're into combat early with one of those big units, you'll be gone before the end. Nowadays we're better of at taking a charge than declaring one, since it lets us invocate our units sooner. For this reason, don't be in combat for too long (with one unit) if you can help it; subsequent combats will stack up and you'll lose Victory Points quickly. Most importantly, make sure you can always at least match his unit sizes with yoru invocating - if he starts to outnumber you he'll quickly be steadfast. Lastly, deploy your units with a frontage of 5, the more ranks you can make out of your Rank'n'file units, the less likely he is to be steadfast.
 
so back to the drawing board keep konrad lots of ghouls and my graveguard with great weapons with combat vamps. I was thinking curse of the ages on a few units.

Actaully talking to him he doesnt use any of the parton god's his army is as basic as one can get. Like I said he won the set of games agaisnt everyone today. Was fun watching the dwarves and orc's get hit hard.

I watched the knights get out numbered and dismembered. then watched there archers take a charge. It was funny cause I did the same basic thing to that army. Knights vs graveguard is graveguard win. Except the chaos army I won the rest of my games today. always helps when dwarf cannons go boom first turn.

Ill try that army list, Ive never been a fan of ghouls realy but have pleanty of them to play with. I was thinking splitting my graveguard into two units.
 
I'm toying with 2 units of GG atm, 21 in each (or 20 with a Wight King) should make a solid mainline, flanked by ghouls, and isn't quite as "Deathstar" esque as 1 unit.
 
"Ha! The forces of Chaos continue to amuse me. Sure we are currently under siege by a horde some 30,000 strong from the North, backed by demons, cannons, and infernal vehicles, but soon they will tire themselves against my ramparts. Then, when tired and confused and overspent, I shall counter-attack, and obliterate all." - Azula Tombshriek at the begining of the 12 year siege of Messerwald.

I'd disagree with Human Eater on the Lore of Death because looking at that chaos army, the first thing that came to my mind was its house-of-cards effect. Kick one card and it will all fall apart.

Now before I go any further the one thing I will confess is I have NO CLUE what a hellcannon is in terms of rules, or what its capable of, though I will confess my main opponent is oddly a Warriors of Chaos one.

I like the lore of death because firstly it can generate more power dice, and even initiative 4, those units of mauraders are HUGE and Xereu.. Xer... X... the Purple Sun of Xenu can help scare off a rank bonus. Alas no though, the spells I was looking at were Soul Blight to turn those marauders into kittens, Laniph to assassinate his general, and then Doom and Darkness. I know I'm assuming all goes well here, but with a few lucky power dice against no magical opposition your foe is going to be failing fear checks with low leadership, strength and toughness. Sure they have flails, but you're fearless and in big numbers. Its easy to play the attrition game here.

Of course I could be horribly wrong and failing to take into account what a Hellcannon is. What I do know though is that running 240 Marauders down is waaaay easier than killing them.

Also if he's going ten wide I'd be tempted to go for a small army with a refused flank, and let his forces wheel and queue up to fight me. As for the hellcannons.... fell bats? ethereal ninja vampire? The banner that gives ward saves against shooting? The banner with regen?

EDIT - Wait, they're Khorne aren't they? They're the Immune to Psychology ones, aren't they? *facepalms*
 
Hmm, I've played against some similar lists and they are really hard to beat, those cheap marauders are insane, today my friend fielded 2 units of 50 with frenzy and GW and each unit cost like one of 30 skellies... so sad.

Anyways to beat this specific list I would go combat heavy, Str 5 is all you need to kill masses of marauders go for a vamp lord with +2 atacks red fury, and eternal hatred. Varghulfs are specially good killing this guys because of thunderstop, go for multiple units of ghouls instead of a big one, deployed as a horde ghouls lose atacks because of the supporting atacks rule and you need the extra maneuverabilty.

As for the magic phase, I would't bother spending precius points on getting those fancy new magic lores, you will win in combat and all the magic support you need for combat is a necro with VDM.

Also, cavalry against an army like this is very weak, as much marauders as you kill they will always stike back with Str 5 and that is going to hurt a lot, I would rather go a big unit of grave guard with HW/Shield, maybe 35 and if you are sure his units are not ITP go for the screaming banner instead of BB to make sure you minimize your casualties, if they fail a fear test they will hit on 5 and also this will let you use the helm to support another unit.

Finally, don't spend much on heroes, maybe just a necro with VDM, a vamp with the helm and a wight king BSB, anything else is luxury because our hero choises aren't very good at killing masses, instead take vargulfs and wraiths to support your infantry units.
 
As a rule of thumb; Warriors are way too cheap, in every category.
The army list allows for an insane amount of high-strength attacks.
For 8th edition Frenzy is grossly under-priced, and as a vestige from 6th edition onward; high-strength weapon upgrades such as halberds, two-handers and flails, are still miraculously only costing a point or two. The WoC "Mark" of Chaos system is also garbage, as entire units are "given" an "extra attack" with "immune to psychology" for less than one point per model.

Lucky for you, this player only brought marauders; wait till you face a Warrior unit that can get--3, str-5 attacks at initiative huge-and all for 16 or 17 points, with armor saves of 4+ and ward save.
 
Have you thought about Terror-bombing him? From what I understand, his units won't have ridiculously high LD, and he's not fielding a BSB at all! This makes his troops (especially on the flanks) quite vulnerable to a strategy like the dual-Varghulf approach.

Remember that Terror tests are now taken before the charge distance is rolled for, so anything 20 inches away can be charged by a Varghulf and forced to test for Panic. With 2 Varghulfs, you can charge with one of them and then charge again with the second, in case the first one doesn't cause the opponent to fail his test. Plus, even if they pass the second test, those Marauders are still staring two snarling monsters in the face.

This creates the possibility of a Panic wave across his entire army. Sure, such a devastating wave isn't likely...but you may well get a solid 1 or 2 units to make a break for it after the first. Also, keep in mind that your Varghulf can re-direct his charge into someone else if the first victim flees, thereby causing a second terror test.

Personally, I've never gotten to use this tactic because I always play against a Skaven player who loves his Strength in Numbers rule and who ALWAYS takes a BSB. Running Dual-Varg would be a waste of points for me. However, it has always sounded like a good technique on paper, and I think it has potential against an army that has low-to-average LD.
 
The one problem with panic bombing, and why i recommended lore of death is that warriors of chaos get to reroll failed panic tests. Its hard to get the domino effect going.
 
Gahh...forgot about that one. That would indeed make Varghulf tag-teaming much less effective. But I thought they had to have the Mark of Tzeentch to do that?

Am I right, or am I just going to further embarrass myself? o_o
 
Well, Mark of Tz is a 6+ (stacking) ward save, and +1 to cast. You may be thinking of Slaanesh, which is immune to Fear, Terror and Panic (not ITP). On topic, Nurgle makes anything targetting them -1 WS and BS, and Khorne gives them Frenzy. But unfortunately for opposing players, ALL units (yes, even the Warhounds) have the Will of Chaos special rule, granting them re-rolls on panic tests.

As for the undivided as opposed to the Khorne thing which I presumed, basically thats even more of a reason to go infantry heavy.

Oh, and the Lore of Death thing - if you want hexes and a somewhat more reliable "initiative or die" spell, take Shadows. Against a typically crude and simple army like his, rolling a 2 or a misfire on the purple sun artillery dice could cost you the game - having that floating around on your side will never be good, especially if you're letting him come to you. You can sit there talking up any Lore in the BRB nowadays, they're all powerhouses compared to the somewhat outdated army book Lores (we're fortunate to have a great one, but WoC ones actually aren't that great any more in a lot of situations - I like Slaanesh myself but Nurgle is basically inferior to Death in every way, and Tzeentch is sooo random diceroll dependant that 8th basically killed it). Ultimately against an army with 95% toughness 3, Lore of Fire is a win-win situation. Loads of hits, and all higher Str than your opponent. Don't get me wrong, I hate Fire, and Fire is now almost useless in a large range of situations, but against a horde army like Marauders, or say, certain Skaven and O+G, Fire does the job better than a lot of other Lores.
 
Ok couple of different tactics I'd suggest here: (Sorry that it turned into a bit of a wall of text, I will add in as a disclaimer, that I likewise don't know much about hell cannons, and haven't played vs chaos.)

Mobility - His army isn't going to be very mobile, so separate them so you're only fighting 2/3rds or 1/2 of his army at once.

- Use a Varghulf to march up in between his units, so that they don't have a forward arc to charge you. Then you can pick and choose when/where to rear charge after he's engaged you, and gimping his marching capability in the meantime. He won't chase you, if he does you can easily move out of his frontal arc again. Could also kill Hell Cannons while he's behind their army.

- Use the terrain to your advantage. Block 1x flank with impassable terrain if you can. Even a forest etc so that if he does risk going through it, he'll lose steadfast. If you do this, it cuts up the battlefield, anything from that flank has to go the long way round, and won't be involved in combat til T5 or T6. If you're only fighting half his army at a time, you'll crush him.

Magic: - He doesn't have any casters, so you'll get off most of your spells without too many problems. Particularly since you don't have a coach.

- Use winds of Undeath to your advantage, he doesn't have any magical attacks with just Maurders right? So you can tarpit his units with Spirit Hosts and only have to compete with his +4 static CR. WS4 T3 with not much armour you should be able to only lose combat by 1-2 each round. Thus each casting should keep 1 of his units out of your hair for a turn (Particularly if you can get a flank or rear charge). At worst, park spirit host or zombies 1" infront of his unit, at a wierd angle which means an overrun would be pointless. Then he only gets a 1" charge forward that turn.

- Magic Missile him as much as you can, Remain in play spells will be useless though as he doesn't have to cast, so will have PD to burn in his own magic phase to dispell with.

- Buff up 1 or 2x units of core troops to excessive numbers, and have them take his initial charges. They just need the numbers to sustain the casualties from his charge.

- imo go support Lord instead of butcher lord. You really don't want to risk 12x Str 5 attacks in the first round of combat. I love combat lords, but they really are just too risky, particularly against high str rank & file units. If you're going to dominate the magic phase anyway, might aswell take full advantage of that, so MotBA etc. He'll be -3 or -4 to dispell, so if you 2 dice something, he has to 3 or 4 dice it. With MotBA you'll average 9-10 PD a round.

- imo ditch conrad too, get a vamp with good augument/hex spells. Maybe lore of shadows, although bear in mind that he can easily dispell the remain in play spells from shadows before his combat phase. However not before his movement phase, so you could have your 2nd vamp, on a hellsteed (he can't shoot other than his hellcannons), move up infront of / behind his ranks without risking being charged. This Vamp could also probably magic down his hell cannons? Particularly since he can probably steed of shadows to be within range of them T1

Combat: - Survive the first round with each unit, and with the right buffs, they'll be running the next.

- Let him charge one of your big core units, so that you can rez units + then retaliate with counter charges etc once his unit is exausted and doesn't have the +2 Str bonus from flails.

- As said earlier, ranks of 5 wide for your units, and go as many ranks deep as you can. Apart from the first round of combat, when he destroys you with his flails, combat should be mostly even between your unit and his (you'll usually lose, but you can replenish your models more easily than he can, and might get lucky and win a round) . Most important thing is, you need to survive that first round of combat, with a decent amount of ranks remaining.

- Hold back your GG/knights if you can, then charge them in the turn after he's charged you.

- Your Varghulf in behind his units will allow you to boost up your CR after he charges you. +1 Charge, +2 Rear and should average 4 kills a round (With maybe 1 wound in return max). Only charge after that first round though, otherwise he might kill your Varghulf first round of combat.

- Use Helm of Command, he's WS 4, which is unfortunate since he'll still be hitting on 4+, even if you give it to your Lord, so can give it to any vampire. But 4+ is significantly better than 3+, also then you'll be hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ which will boost your kills too. Use this on whichever of your units is to his front, preventing casualties is the main goal here, particularly to your big unit of skeletons / ghouls, since you need to have more ranks than him.

- If you win a round of combat, he loses frenzy. Then you'll have a significantly better chance of winning subsequent rounds, even if he's still steadfast and doesn't flee.

- He'll likely go 10 wide, so he won't be that deep. If he isn't 10 wide, and so is quite deep, then you'll win combat more easily, you'll just be gridlocked in place for a long time though as it'll take ages to remove steadfast from him. But since you're 5 wide, it hopefully won't be too long until you outrank him.



In general, I think that the main tactics for you, are to divide his army via terrain + using Spirit Host / Zombies and the Varghulf to prevent marches / 1" charges.

Then you dominate the magic phase, whittle down as many of his units as you can from range, buff up your own units

survive his charges, and then butcher him with your own charges. Since he's a bit of a one trick pony really. First round of combat is going to be brutal, but after that it's an almost level playing field (He'll have 2x the hits on you, but you'll rez them back each turn). But when you add in magical buffs / helm of command / rear charges, you should be getting the better of him. It's just that first round which will destroy you.

This tactic does depend heavily on you surviving that first round of combat, with ranks. You'll take some massive casualties during it (Probably 29x WS4, Str 5 attacks vs your unit, without any buffs, you could expect to lose an average of 14 skeletons from his charge, and maybe another 10+ from CR, more if his lord is in the unit or if he gets lucky rolls). With the right buffs though, (particularly if you're use ghouls), you can probably more than halve those casualties.
 
I would definitely take a butcher Lord actually, you won't missile down a hellcannon in one turn, then he'll just charge you. And, to be honest, take him with a +2A weapon from the BRB (or 3 maybe?) and then you're killing on average 7 marauders per turn. (Lord w/ 6A = average 5-6 hits inc. hatred, 4 wounds, and then 4 extra attacks from fury, thats 7 kills normally, from mathhammer anyway). Just a (albeit big) unit of ghouls won't out-CR any chaos army whatsoever on their own. You need decent backup for them - hence, a weakened enemy unit (from Lore of Fire), and they should have +1S and +1T from Wyssan's Wildform, combined with their RnF-butcher of a Lord, and maybe a WK to take challenges, umm.... Ghouls win.

Bear in mind what I said earlier: the only place you'll beat a WoC army is in combat, unless you're Dwarves/Empire/Chuck Norris.

Oh, and he said that he wasn't using Frenzy btw, just an undivided marauder force.
 
Sounds like a bunch of giant units that are hard to move. bunker up in a corner and pummel him with spells while varghulfs and sneaky lords run around. I tend to table my WoC opponent every time we play and hes really good and usually gets second in the tournament. Also, this whole skeletons wont beat WoC or anything for that matter stuff is rubbish, ive done it plenty of times.
 

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