AoS - 3rd Best way to kit out a Vengorian Lord?

[The Sun King]

Hi guys - so I wanted some input for a build I'm planning on bringing in my next list.

Vengorian Lord, Legion of Blood

• Aura of Dark Majesty: Subtract 1 from [UWSL]hit rolls[/UWSL] for attacks made with [UWSL]melee weapons[/UWSL] that target this general.
• Amulet of Destiny: The bearer has a [UWSL]ward[/UWSL] of 5+.

So, this build should be pretty tanky. However, I can't decide if I should exchange the Amulet of Destiny for:

• Soulbound Garments: Add 1 to [UWSL]save rolls[/UWSL] for attacks that target the bearer.

What is best? 3+, 5++ or 2+? And here it might be important to remember the Vengorian Lord's other ability:

• Nightmare’s Miasma: While an enemy unit is within 3" of any friendly models with this ability, worsen the Rend characteristic of that unit’s [UWSL]melee weapons [/UWSL]by 1 (to a minimum of ‘-’).

But then again, the Vengorian Lord also has Mystic Shield, to get that juicy 2+ armour save? However this is obviously prone to dispels.

EDIT: The factions that I will most likely play against are: Seraphon, Sylvaneth and Gloomspite Gitz.

 

[Grave Tacticus]

Personally, I'd want to run the 2+ save, especially with the anti-rend aura. I can see the positives of running a ward save, but unless you're dealing with an opponent that can bypass your armor you'd just be rolling on diminishing returns.

 

[The Sun King]

Thanks Grave! What do you mean by rolling on diminishing returns? Remember that mortal wounds bypasses normal saves but can be stopped by ward saves.

 

[Grave Tacticus]

I misspoke. This is they likelihood of losing a wound at 2+ or 3+/5+. If your Vengorian Lord is running up against Rend 3 or worse (before aura) attacks, take the ward save, otherwise get the 2+ save.

-- Rend 17%/22%
-1 Rend 33%/33%
-2 Rend 50%/44%
-3 Rend 66%/55%
-4 Rend 83%/66%
-5 Rend 100%/66%

 

[Raizi]

I would always choose Premeditated Violence for a Legion of Blood Vengorian Lord as the Command Trait. Vengorian Lord is already quite solid defensively with All-Out Defence and Mystic Shield available, but Vengorian Lord is the only character that can take full advantage of those exploding 6's for all the attacks on it's warscroll.

My three different Legion of Blood Vengorian Lord Kits:

Generally good:

• Premeditated Violence
• Amulet of Destiny
• Amethystine Pinions

Against heavy spellcasting:

• Premeditated Violence
• Oubliette Arcana
• Amethystine Pinions

Against light spellcasting, (generally priest heavy)

• Premeditated Violence
• Arcane Tome
• Amaranthine Orb

 

[Unas the slayer]

Speaking as seraphon player, unless you're facing some hero on carnosaurs or salamanders, you're not going to suffer from high rend attacks.
Mortal wounds, on the other end, are fairly common. Skinks shootings or saurus knights buffed with the starpriest venom staff inflicts damage with large amount of attacks at 0 rend but MWs on 6s, and one of the most reliable ways for seraphon to snipe characters is with lord kroak or a Slann and comet away it with multiple d3 MWs.

 

[The Sun King]

Great input everyone! This is exactly the type of discussion I love this forum for .

Grave Tacticus : According to your math I would actually prefer 3+, 5++ since the difference between 17% and 22% is not that big, and from that point on, the ward save is the best option. Also there is plenty of other ways of boosting your normal save: Finest Hour, All Out Defence and Mystic Shield.

Raizi interesting anti-magic builds! I'm not really worried that much about enemy casters. That might be a mistake on my part, time will show I guess. Regarding making the VL more offensively built I'm not sure that, that is what I'm going for. The idea was building something that could tank very well. I would rather rely on killing power coming from other units in the list.

Unas the slayer Very nice insights Unas. I will keep that in mind when I face the Seraphon player. At the moment I think he is running a monster mash list, but that can change quickly.

 

[Unas the slayer]

. Unas the slayer Very nice insights Unas. I will keep that in mind when I face the Seraphon player. At the moment I think he is running a monster mash list, but that can change quickly.

If that player goes for a dino list, then 2 things come to mind.

1 - beware of the skink chief on stegadon. If fully buffed, can shread to pieces anything but morathy.

2 - it will be 99% a coalesced list. They reduce incoming damage by 1 but their bravery will be lower than the usual 10, so they are more vulnerable to that.

 

[The Sun King]

Interesting! What does the fully buffed kit for the skink on steg look like? I'll have to read up om the coalesced faction, sounds like they are good against monsters.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Interesting! What does the fully buffed kit for the skink on steg look like? I'll have to read up om the coalesced faction, sounds like they are good against monsters.

Coalesced gives: +1 to number of jaws attacks (great for saurus cavelry, as they gain 2 additional attacks per model), +2 wounds to monsters (thunderlizard subfaction only) and dam reduction 1 vs phisical damage.


The stegadon chief is probably the most powerful single build available to seraphon.
Copy and paste from a guide i wrote:

Basic stegadon got (at full profile):
10 wounds, move 8, save 4+
missile weapons: you can choose between skystreak bow (24” – 3 attacks 3+ /3+ / -1 /3dmg) or Sunfire throwers (1 attack / roll a dice for models in a target unit within 8”, deal MWs on each 5+)
basically, long ranged or anti melee
Melee weapons: 4 different weapons, ALL hitting on 3+/3+/rend -1: 3 meteoric warspear (branded by the chief, 1dmg), 2 massive horns (4 dmg), 2 jaws (2 dmg), 5 crushing stomps (2 dmg). a grand total of 12 meee attacks.
a very respectable statline.
1st step - use the Coalesced faction:+1 attack to jaws weapon: you go to 13 melee attacks.
2nd step - pick thunder lizard subfaction and make the stegadon chief your general with 12 wounds: tnx to the command trait you gain +1 attacks to ALL the weapons of the mount (crew is counted as mount); so:
shooting: 5 javelins by skinks and then 4 Bow or 2 dices rolling for the sunfire thrower (the profile of ST is “attacks = 1; so it turns into “attacks = 2).
melee: Having 4 melee weapons, 3 of them of the mount, you gain 3 attacks for a updated total of 16 Attacks
3th step: start of hero phase: select the Great Drake Constellation for +1 attacks to all hero weapons: The updated total of you melee attacks is now 20.
4th step: use your command ability on yourself and add 1 attacks to each melee weapon... The final total is 24 melee attacks: 5 warspear + 5 horns +6 jaws +8 stomps
5th step: give your general a cool artefact (for example, Cloak of feathers: -1 to be hit, +4 to move and fly).
There, this is an auto-sufficient build, and it can be improved with a minimal support.
For support, stick near it a single puny skink priest and now your stegadon can have improved save, can run, shoot and charge and all his attacks (24 melee + shooting) now hit at 2+.
And of course, being a monster, monster actions.


Further personal note. With such a build, i've managed to wipe a buffed unit of 30 mortek guards in a solo charge.

 

[The Sun King]

Coalesced gives: +1 to number of jaws attacks (great for saurus cavelry, as they gain 2 additional attacks per model), +2 wounds to monsters (thunderlizard subfaction only) and dam reduction 1 vs phisical damage.


The stegadon chief is probably the most powerful single build available to seraphon.
Copy and paste from a guide i wrote:

Basic stegadon got (at full profile):
10 wounds, move 8, save 4+
missile weapons: you can choose between skystreak bow (24” – 3 attacks 3+ /3+ / -1 /3dmg) or Sunfire throwers (1 attack / roll a dice for models in a target unit within 8”, deal MWs on each 5+)
basically, long ranged or anti melee
Melee weapons: 4 different weapons, ALL hitting on 3+/3+/rend -1: 3 meteoric warspear (branded by the chief, 1dmg), 2 massive horns (4 dmg), 2 jaws (2 dmg), 5 crushing stomps (2 dmg). a grand total of 12 meee attacks.
a very respectable statline.
1st step - use the Coalesced faction:+1 attack to jaws weapon: you go to 13 melee attacks.
2nd step - pick thunder lizard subfaction and make the stegadon chief your general with 12 wounds: tnx to the command trait you gain +1 attacks to ALL the weapons of the mount (crew is counted as mount); so:
shooting: 5 javelins by skinks and then 4 Bow or 2 dices rolling for the sunfire thrower (the profile of ST is “attacks = 1; so it turns into “attacks = 2).
melee: Having 4 melee weapons, 3 of them of the mount, you gain 3 attacks for a updated total of 16 Attacks
3th step: start of hero phase: select the Great Drake Constellation for +1 attacks to all hero weapons: The updated total of you melee attacks is now 20.
4th step: use your command ability on yourself and add 1 attacks to each melee weapon... The final total is 24 melee attacks: 5 warspear + 5 horns +6 jaws +8 stomps
5th step: give your general a cool artefact (for example, Cloak of feathers: -1 to be hit, +4 to move and fly).
There, this is an auto-sufficient build, and it can be improved with a minimal support.
For support, stick near it a single puny skink priest and now your stegadon can have improved save, can run, shoot and charge and all his attacks (24 melee + shooting) now hit at 2+.
And of course, being a monster, monster actions.


Further personal note. With such a build, i've managed to wipe a buffed unit of 30 mortek guards in a solo charge.

That's a nasty build, let's hope that my Seraphon friend doesn't see that one. It makes me wonder if they should have made the rule (13.3) that you cannot modify to hit and to wound with more than +1/-1 to apply to attacks as well so that you can't stack bonuses to attacks.

 

[Unas the slayer]

That's a nasty build, let's hope that my Seraphon friend doesn't see that one. It makes me wonder if they should have made the rule (13.3) that you cannot modify to hit and to wound with more than +1/-1 to apply to attacks as well so that you can't stack bonuses to attacks.

You have a point. However, this particular build requires a specific subfaction and locking your general to the stegadon (which was increased in points), with the specific command trait, using on yourself command abilities, support with the seraphon constellation (thus neglecting the bonuses to cast and dispel granted by another one) and send him as main focus of your assault.
Many eggs in one baskest... albeit a very dangerous one.

 

[The Sun King]

I wonder if the best counter is a tarpit or an anvil? Like is it better to have 60 zombies trying to tie the Steg down or could a kitted out Vengorian hold the fort against it? The Zombies might not be such a bad idea, with weight of numbers they can amass a decent about of mortal wounds.

 

[Unas the slayer]

60 zombies colud maybe tarpit it. Your best bet, more than a anvil, is to have a good hammer and some screen, as the stegadon chief got a great offensive but it's not that durable. And mortal wounds melt it.

 

[The Sun King]

So getting to attack first with something that hits hard... Hmm... Blood dragons spring to mind, or 6 Vargheists. I've gotta do some math on that.

Edit: with 4 Vargheists in contact they on average hit the steg for 5,28 wounds (factoring -1 to hit). That's decent.

5 Blood Knights on the charge inflict 8,1 wounds on average.

Edit: Those calculations are not taking into account that the opponent probably uses Scaly Skin: Subtract 1 from the damage inflicted by each successful attack that targets a COALESCED unit (to a minimum of 1).