BK bus tactics...

[Cyantific]

Hiya guys, this is probably a stupid question perhaps but I've done some googling (and reading on here) and I think I'm only about half way to an answer.

I've been playing a very gimicky triple TG list with mixed (mostly bad) success and I wanted to switch to a more tried and tested list and thought a BK bus could be fun.

I'm fairly sure I can get the equipment for the vampires right (there's enough posts on that around) and I figure I'll probably take 12 bk's or something but what I'm wondering about is the tactics on actually using the army?

Primarily this: does the bus hang back to give the generals movement bonus to the big blocks of infantry thus slowing the bus down and opening them up to more shooting/magic, or do you race ahead with the bus and TG/VG/hounds etc and screw the core units and leave them behind?

Any pointers on that would be great.

 

[Ether Dude]

Assuming you're not easily offended by radio banter.

1. Put it on the table.
2. Push it forward.
3. Put down 20-0 on your score sheet.

Out of curiosity, are you taking a ghoul king on a terrorgheist? If so, that is beyond awesome.

 

[Cyantific]

Assuming you're not easily offended by radio banter.

1. Put it on the table.
2. Push it forward.
3. Put down 20-0 on your score sheet.

Out of curiosity, are you taking a ghoul king on a terrorgheist? If so, that is beyond awesome.

Thanks for the quick response. I'll give it a listen tomorrow night while I assemble some figures.

I'd like to think it might be slightly more 1-2-3 than the triple TG list as I've been having issues with it, some match-ups it's great, but quite a lot it has some glaring weaknesses.

I have been using a ghoul king on TG, aye. Quite novelty I must say.

 

[The Sun King]

One thing you want to keep in mind when using the bus(I got most of my experience with busses playing Brets but it still applies) is that you really don't enemy chaff to get in the way. That means you need fast chaff yourselv(Read: DW) and other sorts of fast and/or vampiric units. This means that Hexwraiths and Vargheists are pretty good in these lists as they provide a toolbox that can keep your bus from being tarpitted and are fast enough to keep up with the bus.

 

[TK6445]

What a great podcast. Thanks for posting that up. I'm thinking of doing an all wolf core now

 

[Johnny-Crass]

That podcast was very disappointing.

 

[Commisarlestat]

I found it quite interesting even though it was before the FAQ what didn't you like mr crass?

A

 

[Johnny-Crass]

It was just rehashing internet logic about our book. If I needed to know the basics of the VC book I would read my own threads :tongue:

 

[Adam_Barrow]

It was just rehashing internet logic about our book. If I needed to know the basics of the VC book I would read my own threads :tongue:

I hear strange artifacts about our book sometimes. Had a guy say "Oh, VC? You're not bringing a Corpse Cart are you??" Imagine my reaction. Somewhere between dumbfounded silence and that super-twisted evil grin from How The Grinch Stole Xmas.

 

[Commisarlestat]

Good point I suppose. I get a little frustrated with podcasts sometimes when they misread or interpret something wrong.

The only bit I didn't like was the graveguard bit. It always annoys me when people expect 8th ed units to smash face with any support or synergy from the rest of the list.

A

 

[The Sun King]

It was just rehashing internet logic about our book. If I needed to know the basics of the VC book I would read my own threads :tongue:

I hear strange artifacts about our book sometimes. Had a guy say "Oh, VC? You're not bringing a Corpse Cart are you??" Imagine my reaction. Somewhere between dumbfounded silence and that super-twisted evil grin from How The Grinch Stole Xmas.

LOL!

 

[Bane]

I heard one once where they talked about using two Mortis Engines to give a Varghulf 2+ Regen.

Don't trust everything you hear in a podcast, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Cyantific]

I listened to the bit relating to black knight bus tactics and wasn't too impressed. Sounded like a bunch of guys that like the sound of their own voices, but I'm not much of a podcast fan in general.

The Sun King and Johnny have given me loads of great advice across a couple of threads, for which I'm really grateful.

 

[The Sun King]

You are very welcome Cyan! (And yes I do take cash )

 

[BloodbathMcGrath]

That's why this forum is the bee's knees. You get a big gathering of people to discuss and can skip through parts of conversations that get derailed (unless it's funny).

BK bus is definitely gonna be one list I try, Good thing about VC's is we have a multitude of sweet set-ups, even if some of them fall down and bleed....But it guarantees some fun matches

 

[Larro]

That's why this forum is the bee's knees. You get a big gathering of people to discuss and can skip through parts of conversations that get derailed (unless it's funny).

Look, this forum is great, largely because it exists. The fact we have a place to go to peruse lists and throw ideas around is worthwhile, even if the majority of the lists and ideas are a little less than optimal.

That said, you need to realize your audience. That podcast was clearly directed at hardcore tournament players who consider the current metagame and want a somewhat true, albeit "harsh" review of what is good and what isn't. As this is the type of Warhammer that appeals to me, I find that the podcast was useful, even if I already knew much of what was discussed and have won several GTs already using similar VC Bus tactics.

My issue with race-specific forums like this one, the TK forum, UnderEmpire, etc., is that you have good ideas watered down by far too many sub-optimal, small town / garage style / comic shop army list ideas. Something might work in your one-off game, vs. your usual group of opponents, and people tend to have a skewed view towards their own personal experiences - often to their detriment; that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's an idea that would work when applied to high level tournament play against other optimal lists.

As a top tournament player in the US, I find tournament level podcasts to be much more informative than most of what I get off of any of these web forums, including mainstream forums like TWF. I love this forum, but I don't often contribute since to me this forum has less of a tournament crowd and appeals to the "casual" gamer. Just my two cents. Obviously the podcast didn't appeal to everyone, but to knock it as simple or boring is silly; everything said about our viable VC builds, as well as strengths and weaknesses in the current meta, are spot on.

- Larry

 

[Commisarlestat]

An interesting point Larro. I however find many of the podcasts I listen to get things completely wrong (the 2+ regen issue is just one).
I find that many of the top tournament players on the podcasts don't know the rules half as well as anyone in my gaming group.
It frustrates me that if people are supposedly that good and get fine tune everything then how do they get basic rules and stats wrong?

The first time I heard a mistake like that on a podcast I put it down to accident it happens. But I keep hearing it. There is only one podcast I list to regularly as they correct themselves even if it is next episode. Most others rave about something being amazing that is just plain illegal.

Each to their own though.

A

 

[The Sun King]

There are several high profile players on these forums and the fact that there are so many active CONTRIBUTORS is an amazing failsafe. Elitist bloggers/podcasters don't have those assets.

 

[midean]

I have been having good success running a bus w/8 knights in lance formation with these 3 characters in it.

Vamp Lord L2: HA, Shield, Red fury, Quick blood, Ogre blade, Dragon helm, Talisman of Preservation, potion of foolhardiness, barded nightmare Vamp lore

WightKing: HA, GW, barded nightmare, Nightshroud, ironcurse icon

Vamp hero L2: Barded Nightmare, lance, shield, AoD, red fury, Vamp lore

When they hit and make way way with the WK in the middle to negate a most S bonuses and you have a pretty tough T5 wall to crack that generate a lot of CR while denying any back.

 

[Commisarlestat]

That looks pretty much like the bret paladin wall but more Killy. I suppose the extra attacks make up for no ranks. Thinking about it after 1 round of combat you aren't getting any anyway hmm. I think I've just found a new tactic to use for my mousillon list good work midean!

A

 

[midean]

That's what I pretty much thought too about ranks. With Cav your not looking to have maybe 1 extra rank and you lose that usually first round. This way they can only attack your meat shield and can't hit the softer Bk's. Not that 2+ save is soft...lol. I got the idea after thinking about how my Ogres play with this tactic and seeing it done with Bretts gave me the idea for using with my black knight bus.

 

[Bane]

Derailment: I love Bad Dice for tourney-level podcasting. I rarely hear anything remotely questionable out of those 3.

Un-derail: The one thing I have noticed from games/theorying on the knightbus is that you really need ranks. The entire point is to hit hard, but it means nothing if they are steadfast. That is why the one I run is so big.

And if I had the points, there would be at least one more Vamp in that unit too. Anything to hit harder.

 

[midean]

My main reason for not running wider is denying any CR back. And I try and make sure I'm not running it into 5X10 slave buses. Against hordes or other smaller elite units killing 10-15 guys a round is good enough to remove steadfast pretty quickly. And I can go wider if I'm not too worried about attack coming back. And tactically wise I try to have a ethereal troops near by to run it into the flank so the unit can't be doing any combat reforms.

And as for the last part isn't that what we all say......."If only I had more points!!!

 

[Commisarlestat]

I agree with you on the bad dice podcast that's the one I've stuck with. Has a good offering in there.

As for steadfast. Yes you are going to have problems with it but unless you plan on having at least 15 models left at the end of combat to are unlikely to break horde steadfast.

Personally I do not want to win in my turn. I want the combat to drag into their turn. I want units to block flank charges. Using the no overrun rule means to can achieve this fairly easily. That way you break through in their turn without having to deal with their turns shooting and/or magic missiles. After you destroy them in their turn you can reform by holding on ld 10 or fire through if they have been stupid enough to leave a unit in the way.

Most players playing well won't have anything for you to hit so to would spend your next turn reforming and then charge the turn after. That is 2 turns of missile fire and maneouvre. If you break them in your turn you get your free reform and can charge straight away in your next turn meaning no 2 turns of pfaffing around.

That's my logic anyway. Essentially I rarely want to break a unit on the charge ever. I want to kill them in their turn. Obviously flank defence is important but that's one place where I believe vc excel.

Hope that helps the reasoning!

A

 

[midean]

Have to agree with you on VC excelling at flank defense. I run my bus with a Varghulf, 10 strong HexW's and a mix of bats, wolves and spirit host.