Blac Coach

[snoopholly]

Is any one else of the opinion that a BC is now a very viable rare choice, before the new rules i found it be quite hit n miss as to how long it took to power fully up but now with a potential 12 dice to roll each magic phase i find it can be fully powerd after my 2nd phase and can begin to cause chaos in the enemys ranks.

 

[adam_dup]

I'm thinking of running it, however I'm concerned about the hit my magic phase is going to take each and every. Given that I'm trialling the new lores now, specifically the buff/debuff spells and that the coach is the equivalent of over 15 GW Grave Gaurd ( who are my killer unit this ed instead of blood knights) its holding me back a little. But compared to 7th ed it is much more viable, particularly for an army that doesn't use much magic

 

[Crazeh]

If there was a decent model available I'd probably run one. Sadly, I find both the standard Black Coach and the Mordheim Stagecoach utterly repellent. It's as much about how the unit looks as how they perform on the battlefield for me I'm afraid. Besides, with my low standard of painting if they don't look good when they're unprimed they won't look much better after I'm through with them.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

I'm not sure about Black Coach anymore... As the Evocation of Death is not FAQ:ed it means it doesn't steal enemy's power dices anymore (both Evocation of Death and rolling power dices happen at the start of the magic phase and as it's enemy's turn he can decide which one to do first o_o) and it can only fly 10". It is not bad choice but I'd take a Varghulf instead of it...

 

[snoopholly]

i think it could be useful against magic hvy armies as it will potentialy rob them of PD.
on the same theme can an army take 2 BK's and if so how are the rolled 6's distributed?

 

[snoopholly]

I'm not sure about Black Coach anymore... As the Evocation of Death is not FAQ:ed it means it doesn't steal enemy's power dices anymore (both Evocation of Death and rolling power dices happen at the start of the magic phase and as it's enemy's turn he can decide which one to do first o_o) and it can only fly 10". It is not bad choice but I'd take a Varghulf instead of it...

Sorry, why wouldn't it steal enemy dice?

 

[Crazeh]

This is an argument which is ongoing. Some people determine it as "if they both happen at the start of the phase, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which they occur." In which case your opponent will always opt for your Black Coach to trigger first, and hence absorb no dice as there are no dice to absorb.

Others look at it this way. The rule for Evocation of Death specifically states that the dice in the power pool are rolled. If the power pool hasn't been determined yet, then that must logically be the first thing that happens in the phase prior to Evocation of Death.

Personally, I subscribe to the second opinion. Anyone who tried to pull that rules lawyer crap with me would witness my army packed away in record time.

 

[fades]

I'm not sure about Black Coach anymore... As the Evocation of Death is not FAQ:ed it means it doesn't steal enemy's power dices anymore (both Evocation of Death and rolling power dices happen at the start of the magic phase and as it's enemy's turn he can decide which one to do first o_o) and it can only fly 10". It is not bad choice but I'd take a Varghulf instead of it...

Yea, but a unit that is flying can march as normal. Double your flying movement.

i think it could be useful against magic hvy armies as it will potentialy rob them of PD.
on the same theme can an army take 2 BK's and if so how are the rolled 6's distributed?

You randomly roll for each coach, each dice can only affect one Black Coach.

I'm not sure about Black Coach anymore... As the Evocation of Death is not FAQ:ed it means it doesn't steal enemy's power dices anymore (both Evocation of Death and rolling power dices happen at the start of the magic phase and as it's enemy's turn he can decide which one to do first o_o) and it can only fly 10". It is not bad choice but I'd take a Varghulf instead of it...

Sorry, why wouldn't it steal enemy dice?

The Magicphase always starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into a turn (Rolling 2D6 as normal).

 

[PapaNasty]

lol

for some reason I'd been thinking that Chariots (i.e. Black Coach) couldn't march.

And had also entirely forgotten that the Black Coach counts as a Vampire, and thus can march + can allow other closeby units to march.

<3 this thread, just for reminding me of that, otherwise I'd have ended up gimping my army list without realising it lol.

 

[snoopholly]

This is an argument which is ongoing. Some people determine it as "if they both happen at the start of the phase, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which they occur." In which case your opponent will always opt for your Black Coach to trigger first, and hence absorb no dice as there are no dice to absorb.

Others look at it this way. The rule for Evocation of Death specifically states that the dice in the power pool are rolled. If the power pool hasn't been determined yet, then that must logically be the first thing that happens in the phase prior to Evocation of Death.

Personally, I subscribe to the second opinion. Anyone who tried to pull that rules lawyer crap with me would witness my army packed away in record time.

totaly agree, VC players have been hit hard with the new rules but the BC is one thing that's been vastly improved so i think a few of our oppo's have taken umbridge with this and have tried to use there own interpretation of the rule, as you say the rule says roll the army power dice so these have to be generated b4 they can b rolled.

 

[Kalandros]

please stop bringing up this stupid sequence thing in every thread about the black coach

the sequence is CLEAR, the black coach rolls dice from the pool, if the pool has not been generated, it does not use its ability yet.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

I guess then it works like that... Here in Finland everyone says that Black Coach doesn't steal opponent's dice but I think it's best to play as it's meant to be. But I'm not sure can Black Coach march as it's a chariot...

Edit: Hey, a Direwolf FAQ has been arrived! It answered to both questions, Black Coach cannot march but it does steal opponent' dice! *dances*

 

[fades]

It turns into a flyer, and they have the possibility to "glide". Then just ignore the marching rule from chariots.

 

[Kalandros]

It turns into a flyer, and they have the possibility to "glide". Then just ignore the marching rule from chariots.

No no no, the wording is clear Flyers may "March as normal"
The norm, for Chariots, is not marching.

 

[WhiteStar]

I guess then it works like that... Here in Finland everyone says that Black Coach doesn't steal opponent's dice but I think it's best to play as it's meant to be. But I'm not sure can Black Coach march as it's a chariot...

Edit: Hey, a Direwolf FAQ has been arrived! It answered to both questions, Black Coach cannot march but it does steal opponent' dice! *dances*

Yeah, but until an official errata is out, the BC won't be a viable choice here in Finland as it doesn't suck enemy dice. I think the local ruling sucks and is counter intuitive, but it follows RAW. It's a local thing i hope will be addressed by GW.

 

[Bravo_10]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that we now no longer have to worry about the S7 autokill anymore!

Sure, characters with S7 are rare, and war machines still have a 50% chance of slipping through the ward save, but I still feel much more secure about letting the thing move about. It used to just flat-out cower in the face of my opponents' cannons.

 

[Lord Fear]

Yeah, but until an official errata is out, the BC won't be a viable choice here in Finland as it doesn't suck enemy dice. I think the local ruling sucks and is counter intuitive, but it follows RAW.

It doesn't follow RAW at all, it follows a ridiculous illogical misinterpretation of the text, that was put forth by players who I can only assume are terribly bigoted against Vampire Counts. Whoever decides your local rulings should get a grip and be prepared to make a fair ruling based on RAW and the spirit of the game- not to mention the fact that the VC FAQ itself says you on't have a choice about rolling the dice.

Poor show by Finland- stand up for what is right and fight their ruling. You can tell them some dude on the internet says the guy who made this ruling is a douche

 

[orangecoke]

Yeah, but until an official errata is out, the BC won't be a viable choice here in Finland as it doesn't suck enemy dice. I think the local ruling sucks and is counter intuitive, but it follows RAW.

It doesn't follow RAW at all, it follows a ridiculous illogical misinterpretation of the text, that was put forth by players who I can only assume are terribly bigoted against Vampire Counts. Whoever decides your local rulings should get a grip and be prepared to make a fair ruling based on RAW and the spirit of the game- not to mention the fact that the VC FAQ itself says you on't have a choice about rolling the dice.

Poor show by Finland- stand up for what is right and fight their ruling. You can tell them some dude on the internet says the guy who made this ruling is a douche

Totally agree. Also agree with the previous poster who doesn't like the model...until there's a better one available I likely won't run it.

 

[space cowboy]

Tell them that you spoke to a GW employee who told you that the Coach doesn't steal dice until after the pool is generated. That seems to work for most arguments I've had in 40k.

 

[adam_dup]

Or email games workshop, get the correct answer and show that! Works even better!

 

[Solid Rock]

Wow... I'm ashamed to live in a country so close to Finland. Yeah the first time I heard about the sequencing rules I laughed and told my friend about it and they laughed about it too (as a "haha funny they missed that"joke) then we never again discussed it as it's ridicoulus to even contemplate telling your opponent that he can't use his Coach the way it's meant to be played.
If this would happen during a friendly game I would never again play that opponent and if it happened during a tournament I would probably resort to physical violence (kidding of course, but it would have felt good and just).

I've played the Black Coach a few games now and I like it alot and my friends fear it even more. It's a great chariot and and since you can generally be fully powered up round 2 it's amazing. One of the games I didn't get it powered up until round 4 and it still was one of my best pieces on the board.

Ethereal and flying removes the hazard of dangerous terrain (aka everything but flatland) and S7 hits don't autokill anymore, it's the sweet life with a Black Coach! Charging 2D6+10 is awesome and Magic almost never hurts it. Jsut look out for things with magic weapons!

 

[fades]

I choose not to use Black Coach in friendly games, due to the fact that you are actually ruining the magicphase for your opponement, take away some of the fun he might have by throwing those very expensive, gamebreaking spells.

12 Phases of magic, 2 spell got trough, the coach soacked 21-23 dices somwhere. The Defensive player channeled on atleast 2 mages. Just insane, haha

 

[orangecoke]

take away some of the fun he might have by throwing those very expensive, gamebreaking spells.

I actually can't tell if you are serious or not - dont these gamebreaking spell kinda ruin the fun for YOU?