Black Coach and MotBA

[Forge]

Heres my question to the community, I feel i already know the answer but id like to see how the rest of you feel.

For example.

you have 2 casters with MotBA's

you roll a 10 for your WoM

Your coach sucks up 3

so do you have a total of 9(2 Belonging to the Vampires with MotBA's) power dice or do you have a total of 11(4 belonging to the Vampires with MotBA's) power dice?

discuss!

 

[Mortus946736]

You roll a dice for each section, and its specific. The Evocation pulls dice on an individual basis, not as a number you loose, but as EACH SPECIFIC DICE is rolled for. You basically roll a dice for each pd you get, and if you roll the number, the Evocation sucks it up. In order to roll for the MotBA's dice, you need to add them to the pool, and thus, your ultimate result is going to be 9, since you had 12, and lost 3.

 

[Forge]

you actually (from my understanding of the rules) would not roll the MotBA's dice as they do not belong to the power pool, they do how ever count against the maximum power dice limit. The question/debate im bringing up is whether or not after you lose dice from the pool via the black coach or some other special ability like the the orc stealin staff, would MotBA fill that void? because MotBA does not specify when the dice are accumulated and could very well fall into the "who's turn it is chooses the sequence of events."

 

[Ophidicus]

All of the dice generated at the start of the phase are rolled for the Coach. No 'start of phase' dice can be generated after that, so MotBA/SoSS/etc. will not 'top up' the pool.

The procedure is:
1. Generate all power & dispel dice (including all 'start of phase' sources'
2. Perform any actions which require the use of the Power/Dispel pools, which happen at the 'start of the magic phase'. This includes, but is not limited to, rolling for Evocation of Death. The (much misunderstood) Sequencing rule should be used to determine the order of such actions.
3. Get on with the game.

you actually (from my understanding of the rules) would not roll the MotBA's dice as they do not belong to the power pool, they do how ever count against the maximum power dice limit.

We can deduce that MotBA dice are part of the pool by reading the Power Limit rule, which states "The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice..." followed by "This limit applies to all power dice regardless of source, and includes dice gained through [...] special abilities and so on."

Since they count against the limit, they are part of the pool. There is no difference between a 'power dice' and a 'dice in the power pool' regardless of restrictions on which particular wizard(s) can use these dice.

 

[Forge]

All of the dice generated at the start of the phase are rolled for the Coach. No 'start of phase' dice can be generated after that, so MotBA/SoSS/etc. will not 'top up' the pool.

The procedure is:
1. Generate all power & dispel dice (including all 'start of phase' sources'
2. Perform any actions which require the use of the Power/Dispel pools, which happen at the 'start of the magic phase'. This includes, but is not limited to, rolling for Evocation of Death. The (much misunderstood) Sequencing rule should be used to determine the order of such actions.
3. Get on with the game.

you actually (from my understanding of the rules) would not roll the MotBA's dice as they do not belong to the power pool, they do how ever count against the maximum power dice limit.

We can deduce that MotBA dice are part of the pool by reading the Power Limit rule, which states "The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice..." followed by "This limit applies to all power dice regardless of source, and includes dice gained through [...] special abilities and so on."

Since they count against the limit, they are part of the pool. There is no difference between a 'power dice' and a 'dice in the power pool' regardless of restrictions on which particular wizard(s) can use these dice.

I agree with you besides the "part of the pool" stuff.

Nothing says they are part of the pool, and its definetly not implied as the dice are only to be used by the vampire him/her self, but they have been errataed to count against the limit which makes sense.

As far as the argument ive been hearing about whether or not the MotBA dice can top off the power dice pool is as follows. The MotBA power does not specify when these dice are generated, the rules state that power dice must be generated before spells are cast, which you could still adhere too. You roll your WoM, which happens at the start of your phase the power dice "pool" is generated you roll the coach, as per the "who's turn it is determines the sequence" ruling the VC player chooses to use the MotBA power to generate more dice.

Its the same train of thought that you would use when determining what dice to choose when you roll an 11 or 12 when you have a vamp with MotBA do you take all your MotBA dice or do you keep 1 or none of your MotBA dice and keep your rolled power dice. everything happens at the same time although the black coach ability is an obvious RAI and the MotBA ability never really had a problem up until 8th which in turn both collide and fall under the "whos turn it is determines the sequence of events" and since the MotBA dice do not belong to the pool they are not subject to being generated before the coach is rolled but before spells are cast.

I agree with you they should not top off the pool but that is the argument, and it seems very logical to me.

 

[Ophidicus]

They were not 'errata'd', just clarified as a question, to whit: "Do these power dice count as power dice?" - "Yes." That's all there is to it.

The rulebook says "regardless of source" and the FAQ merely backs this up. Nothing changed between the publishing of the 8th Ed rulebook & the issuing of the FAQ. All it says, in effect, is that "these power dice are not exceptions to the normal rules that apply to power dice [with the exception of the additional restriction on its user]."

Hence, I restate my argument, all power dice are part of the pool. There is no such thing as a power dice which is not part of the pool. Since the pool is, necessarily, generated before EoD is rolled, start-of-phase dice cannot be used to add to the pool after this has happened.

I did consider the application of the Sequencing rule to these dice, but the rules are quite definite about generating the pool, to which all power dice belong. If you were right about them not being part of the pool, it would be appropriate to apply Sequencing.

"The MotBA power does not specify when these dice are generated, the rules state that power dice must be generated before spells are cast, which you could still adhere too."

You must still adhere to the rules of generating power dice, which specify precisely when the Power pool is generated. There is no time these dice can be generated, other than during, or immediately after, the Winds of Magic sub-phase. Since the EoD rule states that you must roll all the dice in the Power pool, the power pool must be fully generated before the roll happens, including bonus dice.

_____

One other thing, it's nothing personal, but in technical arguments like these you really need to pay attention to things like sentence structure & punctuation. A sentence like:
"Its the same train of thought that you would use when determining what dice to choose when you roll an 11 or 12 when you have a vamp with MotBA do you take all your MotBA dice or do you keep 1 or none of your MotBA dice and keep your rolled power dice."
- is very confusing, because it is made up of several clauses which should be separated. One thought leads into another, with no indication of where one starts & another ends. This is likely to either frustrate or mislead the reader, probably both. It's impossible to follow a 'train of thought' when it doesn't appear to know which way it is going. I can see you're a reasonable sort of chap, and you think your arguments through, it's just something you should keep an eye on.

 

[artisturn]

All of the dice generated at the start of the phase are rolled for the Coach. No 'start of phase' dice can be generated after that, so MotBA/SoSS/etc. will not 'top up' the pool.

The procedure is:
1. Generate all power & dispel dice (including all 'start of phase' sources'
2. Perform any actions which require the use of the Power/Dispel pools, which happen at the 'start of the magic phase'. This includes, but is not limited to, rolling for Evocation of Death. The (much misunderstood) Sequencing rule should be used to determine the order of such actions.
3. Get on with the game.

you actually (from my understanding of the rules) would not roll the MotBA's dice as they do not belong to the power pool, they do how ever count against the maximum power dice limit.

We can deduce that MotBA dice are part of the pool by reading the Power Limit rule, which states "The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice..." followed by "This limit applies to all power dice regardless of source, and includes dice gained through [...] special abilities and so on."

Since they count against the limit, they are part of the pool. There is no difference between a 'power dice' and a 'dice in the power pool' regardless of restrictions on which particular wizard(s) can use these dice.

I agree with you besides the "part of the pool" stuff.

Nothing says they are part of the pool, and its definetly not implied as the dice are only to be used by the vampire him/her self, but they have been errataed to count against the limit which makes sense.

As far as the argument ive been hearing about whether or not the MotBA dice can top off the power dice pool is as follows. The MotBA power does not specify when these dice are generated, the rules state that power dice must be generated before spells are cast, which you could still adhere too. You roll your WoM, which happens at the start of your phase the power dice "pool" is generated you roll the coach, as per the "who's turn it is determines the sequence" ruling the VC player chooses to use the MotBA power to generate more dice.

It is pretty clear when it states that the extra dice count toward the power limit that they would be generated after the winds of magic roll just like the channeling dice we get to roll for each wizard.

To be totally honest I just see this as a cheesy attempt to get extra dice and not suffer from the negative effects of the Black Coach.

Not that I am saying you are cheesy but the argument is.

Its the same train of thought that you would use when determining what dice to choose when you roll an 11 or 12 when you have a vamp with MotBA do you take all your MotBA dice or do you keep 1 or none of your MotBA dice and keep your rolled power dice. everything happens at the same time although the black coach ability is an obvious RAI and the MotBA ability never really had a problem up until 8th which in turn both collide and fall under the "whos turn it is determines the sequence of events" and since the MotBA dice do not belong to the pool they are not subject to being generated before the coach is rolled but before spells are cast.

I agree with you they should not top off the pool but that is the argument, and it seems very logical to me.

The way I see it is Master of the Black Arts is just dice insurance for 50 points some times you will get to use it some times you won't be able to.

So if you rolled an 11 for your winds of magic roll you would get 1 MotBA dice and no channel attempts and if you rolled a 12 that would be no MotBA dice and no channel attempts.

 

[TMS]

[mod]Thread moved to Laws of the Night.[/mod]

Since the additional dice from Master of the Black Arts doesn't specify that they're generated at any other time than the regular dice in your pool I don't see why they should be treated any different, aside from the regulations that GW have already put on them.

 

[waaanial00]

So if you rolled an 11 for your winds of magic roll you would get 1 MotBA dice and no channel attempts and if you rolled a 12 that would be no MotBA dice and no channel attempts.

And then would we roll for the Black Coach? Or do we roll then apply MotBA dice?

All these bloody sequencing rules, damn I hate edition changes and shoe horning of old rules into new mechanisms :'(

 

[Danceman]

It doesn't really matter if you apply the MotBA die first and then add Winds of Magic you will never get more than 12 die.

Just roll a D6 for each power dice and there you go!

 

[sinistral]

After reading this thread I'm actually more confused then before..
I'm new to VC and the simple question I would like to get an answer for is: Should the roll I make for Black Coach also include the dices I may recive from MotBA?

Example 1
WoM = 7
MotBA*2 = 4
Temporary Total = 11(if this for any reason would be more then 12, it is set to 12)
Black Coach = -2
Total = 9

Example 2
WoM = 7
Black Coach = -1
MotBA*2 = 4
Total = 10(if this for any reason would be more then 12, it is set to 12)

In my opinion example 1 is much more logical but to try and apply logic to WHFB have failed me more then once..

 

[Danceman]

Generate and add up dice, then roll for BC's evocation of Death(example 1).

 

[Forge]

aww man, i had like a page typed out and went back to the previous page and lost everything. well im not gonna type it all out again right now but it was pretty good ill sum it um in a few words here tho.

again i agree with you guys but maybe im wrong heres my counter argument.

No where does it say that the MotBA dice are part of the power pool, as the physically cant be because of their restrictions and are not part of the WoM roll.

rolling for winds of magic, generating dice via MotBA, and evocation of death all happen during the first phase of the magic phase before casting and is not governed any further except by the CN errata(which apparently will not be upheld at the ard boys in hollywood.) the CN errata for evocation of death still says it happens after the power dice pool is made, which under the rule book says that the WoM roll determines the power pool, so EoD must happen at least after the WoM roll but the rest would be subject to sequencing. it can be looked at this way in this flow chart.

WoM roll>Black Coach/MotBA>Cast

The rules say you may not have more then 12 power dice at any one point in the magic phase, the rules for generating the power pool is clearly defined as a WoM roll, and because of MotBA's restrictions can not possibly be part of the power pool as they are unique to that particular caster. There are no set sequence of the Black coach ability or MotBA except that it must fall within the 1st phase of the magic phase, giving you the option to swap them around.

again RAW it works no problem, logically it seems to work.

 

[bored1]

No where does it say that the MotBA dice are part of the power pool, as the physically cant be because of their restrictions and are not part of the WoM roll.

P30 of the BRB:

This limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the Winds of Magic, channelling, from magic items, special abilities and so on.

That seems to pretty clearly indicate that all power dice count towards the power limit.

A little earlier, it states:

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at an point in the phase...

So taking the two statements together, while not an explicit statement (all power dice go in the pool), the logic is fairly tight that the "all power dice" from statement 1 ties to the "power pool" in statement 2.

Restrictions, such as who can use the dice, have nothing to do with anything. Is there a rule that says power dice with restrictions are not the same as any other power die for these purposes? Because the above statements use phrases such as "all power dice".

 

[bored1]

I should clarify, if the Dire Wolf faq is not in effect, then this argument is moot. Then the active player chooses sequencing. So you, as the VC player, would do the following:

Evocation, Generate WoM, Generate MotBA

The above would be true on any turn you're looking to have a strong magic phase. If you want to power up your coach, you would go:

Generate WoM (determine if you rolled high enough), then either MotBA or Evocation, then the opposite

If you want a good magic phase while still throwing some dice at the coach, go:

WoM, Evocation, MotBA

He, as your opponent, would always choose to do the Evocation first.

 

[Forge]

No where does it say that the MotBA dice are part of the power pool, as the physically cant be because of their restrictions and are not part of the WoM roll.

P30 of the BRB:

This limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the Winds of Magic, channelling, from magic items, special abilities and so on.

That seems to pretty clearly indicate that all power dice count towards the power limit.

A little earlier, it states:

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at an point in the phase...

So taking the two statements together, while not an explicit statement (all power dice go in the pool), the logic is fairly tight that the "all power dice" from statement 1 ties to the "power pool" in statement 2.

Restrictions, such as who can use the dice, have nothing to do with anything. Is there a rule that says power dice with restrictions are not the same as any other power die for these purposes? Because the above statements use phrases such as "all power dice".

the limit of power dice is totally different then what the conflict is, generating the power pool is what is in question, still no where does it say that the MotBA dice count as part of the power pool and must be generated together with the WoM roll, but they do count against the maximum 12 power dice on the table at once.

 

[Ophidicus]

I see what you're saying, but, once again, I must restate my own. I won't do it again.

All power dice, regardless of source, are part of the power pool. All of them. No exceptions. Your argument rests on the idea that this is not the case, that there may be power dice which exist but are not part of the pool.* MotBA dice are part of the Power pool, because they are Power Dice. They count against the Power Limit because they are Power dice. They may only be used by the Master in question because the rules for that power say so. The fact that MotBA (modified) has a rule restricting their use has no bearing on any other rules that apply to it.

"The rule book says that the WoM roll determines the power pool."

No it doesn't. It says "The amount of power available to the casting player is equal to the total rolled for the winds of magic."

And then it says, albeit not verbatim, plus other stuff.

It's this 'plus other stuff' that is significant. The Power Limit rule specifies that all power dice are part of the power pool, and specifies that the pool may include die from other sources, including special abilities (which includes MotBA).

It goes:
WoM roll > Channelling > Other Power Dice > Dispel dice (same stages as PD) > Stuff that happens 'At the start of the magic phase' > Cast.

It was, to my mind, quite remiss of GW to omit the Other Stuff sub-phase between WoM & Cast. Not that I'd second guess the infallible Studio or anything...

*With the possible exception of a Power Stone, but that's a different matter altogether.

 

[Forge]

I see what you're saying, but, once again, I must restate my own. I won't do it again.

All power dice, regardless of source, are part of the power pool. All of them. No exceptions. Your argument rests on the idea that this is not the case, that there may be power dice which exist but are not part of the pool.* MotBA dice are part of the Power pool, because they are Power Dice. They count against the Power Limit because they are Power dice. They may only be used by the Master in question because the rules for that power say so. The fact that MotBA (modified) has a rule restricting their use has no bearing on any other rules that apply to it.

"The rule book says that the WoM roll determines the power pool."

No it doesn't. It says "The amount of power available to the casting player is equal to the total rolled for the winds of magic."

And then it says, albeit not verbatim, plus other stuff.

It's this 'plus other stuff' that is significant. The Power Limit rule specifies that all power dice are part of the power pool, and specifies that the pool may include die from other sources, including special abilities (which includes MotBA).

It goes:
WoM roll > Channelling > Other Power Dice > Dispel dice (same stages as PD) > Stuff that happens 'At the start of the magic phase' > Cast.

It was, to my mind, quite remiss of GW to omit the Other Stuff sub-phase between WoM & Cast. Not that I'd second guess the infallible Studio or anything...

*With the possible exception of a Power Stone, but that's a different matter altogether.

I scoured the magic phase section of the book, theres no where that says that all power dice regardless of the source are part of the power pool, it does however say that all dice regardless of the source count against the power LIMIT ie 12.

there are specific items and rules across the WHFB books that add power dice to the power POOL and theres some in the case of MotBA's that add power dice that can be used by a specific caster, much like the power stone arcane item it is not part of the pool but you cant use both dice you get from it if you already have 12 dice (well you can but the dice are wasted)

 

[Ophidicus]

The Power Limit rules are where you should be 'scouring'. Read them, then read them again.

"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice..."
"This limit applies to all power dice regardless of source..."

All power dice count against the Power Limit, therefore all Power dice are part of the pool.

"...much like the power stone arcane item it is not part of the pool but you cant use both dice you get from it if you already have 12 dice (well you can but the dice are wasted)"

There was a reason I said "a different matter altogether."

 

[Grish]

From the arguments put forth, I agree with Forge. The rules you quoted Oph seem to indicate you cannot exceed 12PD; nothing more. There must be SOME kind of timing, because there are items, such as the Staff of Sneaky Stealing, where it would be important.

Example: Vamp player rolls 11 for WoM and has MotBA. Goblin Player has Staff of Sneaky Stealing (vamp player loses 1PD and Goblin player gains 1 DD). Does the Vamp player now have 11 or 12 PD? It would depend if MotBA goes first or second. Or are they both instantaneous?

Items/effects that gain PD and items/effects that take away PD must have some kind of timing. I'd look around on the HE forums; they have many ways to gain PD and these questions should have come up there.

 

[Forge]

The Power Limit rules are where you should be 'scouring'. Read them, then read them again.

"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice..."
"This limit applies to all power dice regardless of source..."

All power dice count against the Power Limit, therefore all Power dice are part of the pool.

"...much like the power stone arcane item it is not part of the pool but you cant use both dice you get from it if you already have 12 dice (well you can but the dice are wasted)"

There was a reason I said "a different matter altogether."

it says "this limit applies to all power dice regardless of the source....." the limit being 12 your going over the top of the rules implying that that means they are part of the pool, although it sounds like they just mean you can never have more then 12 dice period at one time.

even if your interpretation is correct it comes down to the order in which the dice are generated and how the "power pool is generated." the rules clearly define the generation of the power pool is that of rolling the winds of magic dice. unless otherwise stated as "generate at the start of the phase" you can still use sequencing to allocate the dice to your pool after your "pool" has been generated which again is defined as the WoM roll, and after the black coach.

The WoM roll, the black coach, and MotBA all supposedly happen at the same time in the same sub phase as it were. Except that the Black coach according to the CN errata has to be after the WoM roll so has some guide lines. other then that this specific sub category of the Magic phase does not break down into another sequence of events so must be determined using the "whos turn it is determines the sequence of events" because all 3 of these rules collide.

This is one reason im not using the black coach at the ard boys semi finals this year, I cant roll my opponents power dice pool on his turn because the CN errata is not valid

 

[bored1]

You're quoting only the parts you care about from the rules. p 30, BRB:

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase...

Then it goes on into the part you mention.

The prior mention of power pool in relation to the limit indicates that the line you quoted still references the power pool.

 

[Forge]

You're quoting only the parts you care about from the rules. p 30, BRB:

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase...

Then it goes on into the part you mention.

The prior mention of power pool in relation to the limit indicates that the line you quoted still references the power pool.

I didn't quote that part of the text because its irrelevant, It still does not say that those dice are part of the power pool it just says that the extra dice generated by special rules and equipment count towards the limit of 12. Your saying that the armies power pool is every single dice in play which is very untrue, some special equipment/rules only apply to certain models and there for CANNOT be part of the armies power pool, but still count towards the maximum of 12 dice as per that sentence in the book.

 

[StirogiPerogi]

You're quoting only the parts you care about from the rules. p 30, BRB:

The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase...

Then it goes on into the part you mention.

The prior mention of power pool in relation to the limit indicates that the line you quoted still references the power pool.

I didn't quote that part of the text because its irrelevant, It still does not say that those dice are part of the power pool it just says that the extra dice generated by special rules and equipment count towards the limit of 12. Your saying that the armies power pool is every single dice in play which is very untrue, some special equipment/rules only apply to certain models and there for CANNOT be part of the armies power pool, but still count towards the maximum of 12 dice as per that sentence in the book.

More abuse of the sequencing rule!

The wording of the evocation of death implies that the coach roll does happen after the dice have been generated. The wording of the rule does in fact state that the coach does roll after the magic dice are generated. MotBA dice are generated like any other power die, rolled or not. The FAQ, by GW, states the MotBA are power dice and thus are generated at the same time as the other dice.

Now if you were to bring up an item like the Crimson Gem of Lahmia, which specifically states that dice can be generated at any time, you would have an argument against the coach not sucking up any dice generated in this method.

In summary:

The sequencing rule does not supersede what is written in the Black Coach rules. (Any player is not allowed to "choose" when the absorption takes place or if it takes place, this is in the GW errata/FAQ.) The coach is allowed to roll any dice that is generated by the winds of magic or otherwise, at the start of the phase. So as per The Black Coach rules and the FAQ/errata; the coach will roll for any dice that is generated at the start of the magic phase.

MotBA dice are "Power Dice". MotBA dice are generated at the same time as other "Power Dice" because the rules do not state otherwise. The rules imply that all dice are generated at the start of the magic phase, lest for the Crimson Gem of Lahmia example; which states at any time--We both know that MotBA does not state; ".[/align]..at anytime".

 

[Grish]

Big thread on sequencing in the HE forums. Check it out...

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=32450