Black Coach bad?

[Ogul]

Hey!

So I've read on this forum several times that the black coach isn't worth taking, why is that?

I used it yesterday for the first time, it was really fun AND it saved the day with a flank charge. It was the impact hit that did it, his chaos warriors with 4 attacks each were barely able to strike back. It also killed a chimaera and a chariot.

The Coach gets powered up pretty quick with the black periapt in the list.

 

[Tawg]

I think the consensus (As I understand it) is that it's not necessarily terribad as much as it's not (A) terrorghiest.

For 30~ish more points, you get our most winningest, killingest, flying beast of death. Also the fact that it's a Vampiric Chariot is annoying, because "Yay! It can march away from the general.. Oh, poo, it's a chariot." And that rule does nothing else for it, except for stop it from .. crumbling when our general dies? Well I'll tell you what, if our general is dying, we're probably already in for it.. And it's certainly not a contingency anyone is planning for! "Well at least my BC won't crumble when I suicide my general!" Right.

It also competes with the Varghulf (Which can use it's Vampiric rule to good use; Aka Marching), which is a generally considered terror for it's size (Surprise! Thunderstomps!). As well as the Mortis Engine, which is not the best rare we have, but most people find it more fun, and helpful, especially in the role of keeping our units alive with it's Aura, plus again Screams are great vs Armor which is very common place.

Basically the BC suffers from "But.. look at everything else I could have instead!"

And that's the death of it. I ran one into some Bloodletters once, on it's own, and it was more than holding it's own against them with a little bit of IoN help. They were having a really hard time putting out the wounds with such a small frontage, and it's higher-than-their-strength-toughness. It was kinda funny, because.. well it was really silly (And a really bad plan btw, I advise no one do that ever, I was getting lucky). But yeah.. not the most exciting thing around. (PS plz buy TGs! ~GW)

 

[Shareya]

That is sad to hear The coaches look like pretty models.

 

[Vipoid]

Hey!

So I've read on this forum several times that the black coach isn't worth taking, why is that?

I used it yesterday for the first time, it was really fun AND it saved the day with a flank charge. It was the impact hit that did it, his chaos warriors with 4 attacks each were barely able to strike back. It also killed a chimaera and a chariot.

The Coach gets powered up pretty quick with the black periapt in the list.

The problem I have with it is that, outside of Impact Hits, it really doesn't do much. Now, this might be forgiveable if it was cheap, but ~200pts is a lot to pay for this.

I mean, first off, it doesn't really bring any utility. And, for a little extra, you could have either a terrorghiest (which has one of the best attacks in the game, and brings both manoeuvrability and range to our army), or a Mortis Engine (which buffs our units, damages enemies, and is about the same in combat).

If the Black Coach still syphoned both players power dice (and stopped them being used), then that would make it interesting in a magic-light list. But, sadly, that's no longer a possibility.

Anyway, if you compare it to the Varghulf (another combat unit with no utility), it still seems inferior. The coach is a little more survivable, but just doesn't have much offensive power. It seems like you're relying an awful lot on the impact hits, since once they're gone, you've got 5 attacks at WS3. Now, even with flaming, killing blow etc., they're still only 5 attacks at WS3.

The varghulf though had 5 attacks at WS5 and S5 (and hatred in the first round), plus a thunderstomp. Considering that the varghulf is 20pts cheaper and about the same speed (and not reliant on winds of magic to achieve its full potential), it just seems like a better deal.

Basically, it's not awful (and gets pretty decent if you roll well), but just compares badly against the rest of our rare choices.

 

[Ogul]

Makes alot of sence

 

[robtion]

I think Tawg and Vipoid sum it up very well. I really like the coache's style so it is a shame. The coach is not bad at all but there are definately better alternatives.

I still take it a bit as I play for fun, not nececessarily to win or in competitive circles. It has done pretty well for me in the past and I dont think it has ever been destroyed as yet in the few games I have had with it.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

The main problem is it is not what it was. Old Coach was the bees knees and this new one is a pale comparison

 

[eggsPR]

I'm not reading the replies...

Yes, Black Coach bad

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

Just dreaming alittle here.

Would the coach become more viable if flyng actualy meant it gained a proper fly. And to top it off make the coach a special choice?

I just wish it could steal opponents dice still.

Sigh lol

 

[Tomfoolery]

Just a few editions ago the Black Coach and a Banshee was the only rare choices VC even had.

I like the BC. It's a T6 chariot that gets better, and it's cool looking.... and did I mention it's T6.

Being said I would run jsut about any of the other rare choices before I ran a Coach just because they're better. It isn't bad, it's just that everything else is that good.

I have one otw in the mail and I'll field it to max out points. It'll work harder then a one legged man in a ass kicking competition or it'll just look cool on the tabletop.

 

[robtion]

Just as a side note my Black coach also doubles as my mortis engine with the help of some light converting. So at least the model gets a bit of use which is nice.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Got pics someplace, rob? That sounds cool.

 

[Tomfoolery]

Just as a side note my Black coach also doubles as my mortis engine with the help of some light converting. So at least the model gets a bit of use which is nice.

I have considered buying the ME spirits to convert my incoming BC as the pull team. If done right it could be cool.

 

[robtion]

@Adam-Barrow: Yep posted in show us your Black Coach in Unholy masterpieces quite a while ago (don't get your hopes up though it's basically some left over mortis engine bits stuck to the roof of the Black Coach).

I have since made some further changes to it and have plans to do a bit more touch up converting on it at some stage, will post more pics when I do.

@Tomfoolery: Nice! I like that idea.

 

[The Sun King]

I have said it before and I will say it again the Black Coach is the single worst model in the army. It has too few attacks to create CR after round 1 and even in round one you might be unlucky on your d6 impact hits. It's really just almost 200 pts straight out of the window. Yeah it has great protection, but that doesn't help it against static CR... and even if it didn't die turn 2 who would want a almost 200 pts tarpit? We have plenty of great tarpits. That it's competeting with our other magnificent rare choices is just the nail in the coffin(pun intended).

 

[Minsc]

If it was Etheral from the start I would see the appeal with it.

Right now however, it's just a overpriced piece of tr...I mean...Chariot, that instead of sucking up your opponents PD, it sucks up our rare-allowance.
It's an expensive tarpit, in the "army of tarpits".

 

[The Sun King]

Even if it was Ethereal it would die to crumble and do a bad job tarpitting.

 

[Zhatan]

Even if it was Ethereal it would die to crumble and do a bad job tarpitting.

Yeah I agree. It's terribad...
I'm not even sure how one would go about fixing it. Perhaps if it had some support abilities.

 

[Vipoid]

I'm not even sure how one would go about fixing it. Perhaps if it had some support abilities.

Trouble is, the Black Coach is a good example of why 'elite' chariots are kinda crap. I mean, it's 200pts, but does very little beyond it's d6 impact hits. And, whilst S5 is nice, having just d6 means there's very little reliability.

I think there are 2 main ways to fix it:

1) Make it significantly cheaper (and perhaps a bit weaker). Thing is, when it comes to chariots, having multiple, weaker ones are almost always better - you're generally relying on impact hits anyway, so you might as well have as many as possible.

TK Chariots, Tuskgor Chariots, Orc Boar Chariots, Goblin Wolf Chariot are all examples of this. They're not as durable as the Black Coach, but you can have 2,3 or even 4 for the same cost - and the former 2 are core choices!

Having the Black Coach drop in cost and power seems less likely, but I believe it could fix it - especially since the durability you pay so much for is often wasted in combat (T6 and a 3+/4++ does nothing against CR).

2) The second option would be to give it some sort of aura or other support effect. Although, the trouble is, we already have a chariot that buffs units and magic (the Mortis Engine), so the buff would have to be quite different. Probably more likely than the above though, and it really does need something to make it worth taking - it just doesn't work as a pure-combat choice.

 

[Kayosiv]

Fixing it is easy.

Unbreakable, not unstable. Give it "the hunger" but don't allow it to be healed with Invocation of Nehek or the lore attribute.

Done and done.

 

[Tawg]

Trouble is, the Black Coach is a good example of why 'elite' chariots are kinda crap. I mean, it's 200pts, but does very little beyond it's d6 impact hits. And, whilst S5 is nice, having just d6 means there's very little reliability.

Or give the "Elite Chariots" all effects like the steam tank and doom wheel, where they "Grind" in combat for more "Impact hits" on subsequent rounds? That seems like a fairly easy fix for the "Doesn't put out damage" problem.

I think there are 2 main ways to fix it:

1) Make it significantly cheaper (and perhaps a bit weaker). Thing is, when it comes to chariots, having multiple, weaker ones are almost always better - you're generally relying on impact hits anyway, so you might as well have as many as possible.

TK Chariots, Tuskgor Chariots, Orc Boar Chariots, Goblin Wolf Chariot are all examples of this. They're not as durable as the Black Coach, but you can have 2,3 or even 4 for the same cost - and the former 2 are core choices!

Having the Black Coach drop in cost and power seems less likely, but I believe it could fix it - especially since the durability you pay so much for is often wasted in combat (T6 and a 3+/4++ does nothing against CR).

2) The second option would be to give it some sort of aura or other support effect. Although, the trouble is, we already have a chariot that buffs units and magic (the Mortis Engine), so the buff would have to be quite different. Probably more likely than the above though, and it really does need something to make it worth taking - it just doesn't work as a pure-combat choice.

I agree Chariots are more useful for their impact hits most often (Especially when they get d6) but I feel like they just don't exactly function on the same wavelength the game is on currently. Especially since Chariot/Knights can't break units with their charge as well now. Auras are cool, but I feel like over using them would be ashamed, and make most things feel kinda poor.

It would be nice if it had some other unique effect, like if the vampire in it actually was able to have an effect (Some bound spell it could do? As the vampire slumbers in the coach), or like, had better trade offs. But I agree resilience on it's own is woefully inadequate to support a choice. Things of this nature really need a punch, or they are just gonna get dragged down, especially in the Undead with CR = wounds at the end.

 

[Blutsauger]

I think it would be neat if the Vampire inside the coach was able to let friendly units within 6" or 8" march, like the general can.

It'd be a valuable asset in addition to providing a counter-punch unit for your infantry tarpits, and it would be different to the Mortis Engine effect.

Of course, it would be a bit silly that the 'dead' Vampire in the Black Coach was able to let units march, when the very much 'alive' Vampire Thrall in the unit next to him couldn't.

 

[robtion]

While we are working on improving the BC, I think the coach should also be able to march when it becomes ethereal (as ethereals are not slowed by being encumbered according to the BRB) and especially when it gains fly.

 

[Tawg]

While we are working on improving the BC, I think the coach should also be able to march when it becomes ethereal (as ethereals are not slowed by being encumbered according to the BRB) and especially when it gains fly.

I think the last time I played it, I accidentally gave it this ability..

..I think I also accidentally gave it The Hunger, because I forgot being Vampiric alone didn't grant that power lol.

 

[Tomfoolery]

I think if the BC gains all of it's powers the Vamp inside should "wake up". Keep all the same stats and powers but now with the Vampire at the reigns. Free Hero choice if you get a good runoff with it. Roll on the LoV table when he appears, no magic items.

It is totally fieldable then.