Black Coach bad?
- Thread starter Ogul
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I disagree with most of the "holy crap it's terrible" posts above. Then again, I'm not very good. Here's my two cents:
I agree it's not usually the optimal choice for independent 'bring the pain', because you can too easy flub rolls... but especially with the new shooty high elves - this thing is the most survivable unit we have. Armor, ward and goes ethereal? Even without ethereal it's 4+ ward, baby! This thing is likely to stick around unless it's stuck against static CR... and in that case, it's likely you did something wrong. Throw it into combats with other troops and help tip in our favor, or fly this thing around and pick fights. It also causes terror which can be nice some of the time.
Also i like the psychological factor of the coach. It's going to be a lightning rod, which is something I think we desperately need (again against the new HEs). Take a terrorgheist and it's going to be dead turn 1 - the bastard has no save and is as big as a house. The Coach has a role for the our mostly-slow-as-balls army.
Yeah its not the super-unit ... and heck, it would be better as special, but i think it has a place in some lists.
-aki
I agree it's not usually the optimal choice for independent 'bring the pain', because you can too easy flub rolls... but especially with the new shooty high elves - this thing is the most survivable unit we have. Armor, ward and goes ethereal? Even without ethereal it's 4+ ward, baby! This thing is likely to stick around unless it's stuck against static CR... and in that case, it's likely you did something wrong. Throw it into combats with other troops and help tip in our favor, or fly this thing around and pick fights. It also causes terror which can be nice some of the time.
Also i like the psychological factor of the coach. It's going to be a lightning rod, which is something I think we desperately need (again against the new HEs). Take a terrorgheist and it's going to be dead turn 1 - the bastard has no save and is as big as a house. The Coach has a role for the our mostly-slow-as-balls army.
Yeah its not the super-unit ... and heck, it would be better as special, but i think it has a place in some lists.
-aki
Yeah I agree Akiro... if it was 100 pts cheaper.
You cannot throw it into a multiple charge since it will just crumble even faster. And the thing about being good against shooting? Well let's just say that as a VC player I'm not overly concerned about balistic shooting
You cannot throw it into a multiple charge since it will just crumble even faster. And the thing about being good against shooting? Well let's just say that as a VC player I'm not overly concerned about balistic shooting
Mine should arrive tomorrow. I will need to get the Spirit Hosts from the CT/ME bits and the plan is this.
USe the CT/ME Hosts to pull the wagon, elevate the carriage with a clear plastic flying sprue and tilt the forward part of the cab at a downward angle. Fade the Spirit Host ethereal scheme back on the begins of the wagon and match the wraith up. Model up some flames encompassing the back wheels and paint to match the green/yellow of my HWs.
No my BC will not be "bad" at all.
USe the CT/ME Hosts to pull the wagon, elevate the carriage with a clear plastic flying sprue and tilt the forward part of the cab at a downward angle. Fade the Spirit Host ethereal scheme back on the begins of the wagon and match the wraith up. Model up some flames encompassing the back wheels and paint to match the green/yellow of my HWs.
No my BC will not be "bad" at all.
Tawg said:
Perhaps, but not very flavourful. The steam tank gets those because that's basically all it does in combat - run over people. It doesn't have a crew or anything to make attacks.
On the other hand, the black coach does have a crew - it's just that they suck in combat.
Tawg said:
Well, I think the problem is more that designers need to realise that we're not in 7th anymore. d6 impact hits is not going to break anything, so a chariot needs to be decent in a prolonged combat.
I know what you mean about auras.
Tawg said:
Yeah. A bound spell could be interesting, but it would need to be damn good.
Tomfoolery said:
I really love that idea.
Out of interest, would the vampire benefit from KB, +1S, flaming etc.?
As an aside, does anyone else think its odd that vampires only ride in coaches when they're dead? :tongue:
Jan Von Carstein
Zombie
Well okay then... One more model to hit the conversion table.
I have been gone from FB for a while, moving and such, and am considering return. Yet how does one return to an army so changed from what I remember... Sigh.
And the sad part is that everything you said is true. Although the only idea I comp is Kayosivs. BC cannot be more regular than Rare when considering it's fluff so the real options are making it more resilient... and yeah, adding the part about stealing the opponent's PD for good.
I have been gone from FB for a while, moving and such, and am considering return. Yet how does one return to an army so changed from what I remember... Sigh.
And the sad part is that everything you said is true. Although the only idea I comp is Kayosivs. BC cannot be more regular than Rare when considering it's fluff so the real options are making it more resilient... and yeah, adding the part about stealing the opponent's PD for good.
datalink7 said:
That sort of thing could be interesting.
However, I'm not sure the Black Coach can be used in a similar way to the High Elf Frozen-Chicken.
The main problem is that it's basically being used for a multi-charge. But, if the combat goes against you, you can easily lose your ~200pt coach simply to CR.
Vipoid said:
I have to agree with this assessment.
CR is our biggest weakness and in my opinion OP against our army. The game mechanic needs reworked so that units who give up the CR take the CR wounds.
For example if you have 3 vargheists fighting with 30 zombies and the zombies take 15 wounds and the vargheists only give up 2 then the vargheists should only be eligable to take 2 additional wounds from CR. both units taking 17 wounds worth from CR is just wrong.
Ohh well maybe next addition.
Lord Klobuk
Ghoul
eggspr said:
An etherial,flying,tarpit of doom....scary:Vampire1:,would probobly be Op coz you could just charge into big units frontaly and hold them forever....
Personaly i would be happy if it just could take ward saves vs crumble like it used to.
However in defense of the coach I must say that wood elves strugle against it...T6 3+,4++ they just cant put a dent in it,the few times I played them my coach did amazing.
Lord Klobuk
Ghoul
Vipoid said:
Neither does close combat start on turn 1 mr.Irenicus i mean Vipoid
.If it manages to survive and power up by turn 2-3 the tactical options could be very nice...keep in mind i said probobly this would ofcorse require testing in game...Not saying that the Black Coach is great or anything I just dont feel its the worst unit in the game.
I think the black coach needs something like a mix between 6th and 7th edition. Perhaps something like this:
Evocation of Death: Whenever any wizard successfully casts a spell, the black coach gains an extra wound immediately. This can restore lost wounds and even bring the black coach wounds above its starting value. If there is more than one black coach on the battlefield, then the black coach closest to the wizard gains the wound.
OR
For every wound the Blsck Coach causes in combat it gains an extra wound.Restores wounds etc...
rIn either case, change the table to be based on number of wounds the coach has, starting at 5 wounds and going up to 10+.
Evocation of Death: Whenever any wizard successfully casts a spell, the black coach gains an extra wound immediately. This can restore lost wounds and even bring the black coach wounds above its starting value. If there is more than one black coach on the battlefield, then the black coach closest to the wizard gains the wound.
OR
For every wound the Blsck Coach causes in combat it gains an extra wound.Restores wounds etc...
rIn either case, change the table to be based on number of wounds the coach has, starting at 5 wounds and going up to 10+.