Black Coach vs Purple Sun... and some

[eggsPR]

My opponent throws the purple sun at my coach. It hits it and passes through it.

Initiative of the driver or the coach, in which case it would automatically die being that the coach has no initiative.

I've scoured the old threads and didn't find anything specifically relating to this, at least in 8th edition.

Side question... purple sun is not a line of sight, correct? As long as the template is placed touching the edge of the caster (behind, side to side, whatever, 360 degrees, even blast it behind him hitting the rear ranks of his own unit). It's a magical vortex which may need line of sight.

Thanks

 

[Mad 'At]

Page 10 BRB. Characteristics tests are always taken using the highest possible value in the unit/model. So you would use the initiative of the cairn wraith.

In Sweden we have our own FaQ (unofficial) were it is also stated that in the case of a ridden monster (or chariot) then both the rider and the monster would have to test separately, and any part that fails dies, without affecting the other part.

 

[eggsPR]

Page 10 BRB. Characteristics tests are always taken using the highest possible value in the unit/model. So you would use the initiative of the cairn wraith.

In Sweden we have our own FaQ (unofficial) were it is also stated that in the case of a ridden monster (or chariot) then both the rider and the monster would have to test separately, and any part that fails dies, without affecting the other part.

I see that but I also see the second portion regarding automatic pass and fail, and that the Coach intitiative is "-".

I played in a tournament this weekend and it was ruled that the coach auto-died if the sun hit it, which it did. My opponent's rationale was that the wraith and the coach are one unit, not like a character riding a monster where you use the rider's initiative.

However, yes, like you stated, the wraith is riding it and has a higher initiative and should use that. Although it's not like the wraith can pass his test, and the coach auto-fails which would leave the wraith standing there if the coach died. It's one unit, like calvary, so you use the rider's initiative, and the horse (or coach) dies when the rider fails his characteristic test.

It's wierd, and there are 2 ways you can argue it, it seems.

 

[Mad 'At]

No, no, no... the Sweden FaQ is just for cases when you actually have two separate parts, that can be hit individually, on one model. Like a character riding a monster or a character riding a chariot. In the case with the coach you should only ever use the wraiths initiative since it is only one model with only one hittable part. Sorry for the confusion, I not even sure why I involved our FaQ since it covers another case.

Strange that they ruled the coach to auto-die, I think the rules in BRB are pretty clear on that particular point.

 

[eggsPR]

No, no, no... the Sweden FaQ is just for cases when you actually have two separate parts, that can be hit individually, on one model. Like a character riding a monster or a character riding a chariot. In the case with the coach you should only ever use the wraiths initiative since it is only one model with only one hittable part. Sorry for the confusion, I not even sure why I involved our FaQ since it covers another case.

Strange that they ruled the coach to auto-die, I think the rules in BRB are pretty clear on that particular point.

The ref was a moron if you ask me, but it's probably my fault for not giving a convincing counter argument :slapface: - probably would have died anyway with initiative 2 :O

My opponent played Ogres, knows alot about every army and used 2 wizards, both with Death Lore... turns out at least one wizard has to use Maw magic, so he adjusted his army illegally as he played me knowing I didn't know the Ogre army rules... basically played a game that was severly lopsided in his favor in more ways than that, but i digress.

What is your take on the line of sight question on the purple sun? 360 degree anywhere from the wizard's base, or line of sight?

 

[Mad 'At]

Yea, I too have had my share of stupid ref decisions. Once a wide unit of trolls were allowed to assault a building by just touching one corner of the unit with the building. Later I found it clearly written that you have to maximise the numbers of models in contact with it, but it was hard to find in the mist of battle. But then again, it can't be easy for the ref to memorize every single strange situation, sometimes just better to come up with an answer to keep the game going.

IIRC you must place the centre hole of the template within the wizard's forward arc (and thus within line of sight) but you are free too choose any direction in which you want it to travel. Not really sure on how to support that statement though.

 

[Lynks]

Hmm Spell types table states that: A magical vortex must "Lie within Front Arc". It's section in the magic phase says that the centre must be also within the front arc, and the template in contact with the model. I would take this to be that it must be placed within the front arc and the direction must be within the front arc but ambiguity says that one can target it really in any direction. Line of sight is neccesary but it's rather unclear on just how that effects a magical vortex.

"Q: Can magical vortex spells be used in such a way that they affect
friendly models? (p31)
A: Yes"

From our friendly GW FAQ we have a quote, so going on the lack of specification on the direction chosen, it would be entirely possible to place the vortex in front of you then send it back through yourself and any unit you are with. Again, I would play it that the direction chosen must be within the front arc (I doubt many wizards seriously want to turn themselves into crystal statues)

 

[Uziel]

I totally agree lynks. What would be the purpose of placing it in the front arc if it was not intended to go that way in the first place?
The spell, or should I say spell types (magical vortexes) are also more than dangerous enough. We don't need to see them with more flexibility as to how they can be used...

 

[Fodderboy]

I totally agree lynks. What would be the purpose of placing it in the front arc if it was not intended to go that way in the first place?
The spell, or should I say spell types (magical vortexes) are also more than dangerous enough. We don't need to see them with more flexibility as to how they can be used...

If I'm nose to nose with my opponent's line, I'd totally want to skim my vortex sideways across his army instead of punching it straight through.

Or the caster could be on an angle more than 45 degrees off his intended juicy target.

Or maybe you just want your caster to fling his arms to the side while interpretive dancing...