Black Knights vs. Blood Knights

[Banat]

Point for point, which unit is more cost effective/worth their weight on the tabletop?

Two barded and lanced Black Knights cost 52pts, only 2pts more than a single Blood Knight.

Four attacks and two wounds against three attacks and one wound.

Strength 4 (6 charging) against Strength 5 (7 charging)

Cannot march outside of General's bubble against Can march outside Gen's bubble.

More controllable against Frenzy and Martial Honour

Killing Blow (WS3) against WS5

Thoughts, feelings, opinions, tactics?

Apologies if this thread has been done already, it seems like the kind of thread that would have! =S

 

[Darbagal]

Importantly, IoN raises multiple models for Black knights vs only one for blood knights.

However they have slightly different purpose. The purpose of black knights is to deliver blender vampires to their target and give them Look our sir, shooting protection etc while the purpose of blood knights is to kill things. I find that the difficulty to raise blood knights makes them to expensive and to easy to kill versus the advantages they provide.

 

[Banat]

Cheers Darbagal, yes the IoN point is pretty huge.

 

[Ohn]

While I played neither of them, I'm asking myself the same questions. Since I'm wanting to play cavalry in my next addition of my collection!

Also:
Black Knights are Special units while Blood knights are Rare.
Blood Knights have acces to the Blood Khep Banner (Very Good against Shooting)

IMHO, the IoN advantage on Black Knights is very huge. They seem weaker in CC but are way more resilient (thanks IoN). Yes, they can't march outisde of our General's Bubble but, they're almost alway with him acting as a bus. So...

 

[Banat]

Yeah... flag of blood keep against wood elves perhaps...

 

[Ohn]

Yes! My current meta is my friends group with 2 WE players (6 players totals). Maybe I've got more chance to find that banner handy than you...

 

[najo]

First off, you counted 2 black knights having 4 attacks. Does that include the horses? If so, blood knights have four attacks then too. 3 for the knight and 1 for steed.

Second, black knights HAVE to operate near your general or they lose mobility. They also really require IoNs support. After the charge black knights lose damage output.

Blood knights can completely run off on their own. They can avoid threats and come back in flanking easily. After charge they are still S5, giving a respectable damage output.

Also, as @Blutsauger pointed out. The banner affects ranged attacks, not shooting attacks. So it affects both shooting and magic spells. I haven't found anything in the FAQ or rule book that disputes this.

 

[Banat]

The Black Knight has one attack and the skeletal steed has one attack. Two per model. The Blood Knight has two attacks and the nightmare has one attack, so three per model. So the BK has four attacks and two wounds for roughly the same price as three attacks and one wound.

In my current 1500pt list I run Manny Jnr as my Hero in the Black Knights. I lost a bit of mobility but actually the timing worked out perfectly in the end. I think I will generally try to soften up any large infantry blocks with curse of years before running my Knights into them, as it was effective the last time I tried it.

What about your opinions on Killing Blow vs. WS5? Which ones more likely to garner kills?

 

[Mioum]

But the Blood Knights are Frenzy, so have 2+1 attacks, plus the mount for a fourth.

Also, the Skeletal steed attacks are WS2 S3, while the Nightmare is at WS3 S4.

Plus you initial comparison make it looks like the 4 attacks of the Black Knights are at S4(6 on charge), wich is a bit misleading. As far as attack power is concerned, Black Knights are far out behind the Blood Knights.

The main advantage of the Black Knights is the number (more wounds, better bunker) and the healing potential of the unit.

 

[robtion]

Blood knights also have better stats all around, I, L, WS, etc.

Why not try taking both, a Black knight bus with Blender lord and a Blood Knight unit with flag of blood keep plus perhaps a hero blender vamp?

 

[GDD]

@robtion My list runs a lv3 blender VL on LoV, and two lv2 heroes. One always has beasts, the other either has metal, or beasts.

And I plan on having 10-13 Black Knights, and 5 Blood Knights. Still enough rare left for a TG!

I say plan on because I'm still waiting for them in the mail
I hope the list will work. I like having two places to deploy my general.

 

[robtion]

@robtion My list runs a lv3 blender VL on LoV, and two lv2 heroes. One always has beasts, the other either has metal, or beasts.

And I plan on having 10-13 Black Knights, and 5 Blood Knights. Still enough rare left for a TG!

I say plan on because I'm still waiting for them in the mail :tongue:
I hope the list will work. I like having two places to deploy my general.

Sound like a fun list. Yes it had occurred to me that a terrorgheist would fit nicely in their. I have blood knights and have found them to be great, still need to get some black knights though.

 

[najo]

The Black Knight has one attack and the skeletal steed has one attack. Two per model. The Blood Knight has two attacks and the nightmare has one attack, so three per model. So the BK has four attacks and two wounds for roughly the same price as three attacks and one wound.

In my current 1500pt list I run Manny Jnr as my Hero in the Black Knights. I lost a bit of mobility but actually the timing worked out perfectly in the end. I think I will generally try to soften up any large infantry blocks with curse of years before running my Knights into them, as it was effective the last time I tried it.

What about your opinions on Killing Blow vs. WS5? Which ones more likely to garner kills?

Killing blow depends on your local meta the armies you have problems playing against. Killing blow is useless against Ogres, Monstrous Cavalry etc. Its great against man-sized, high armor targets.

I think the analysis of full differences helps make the decision, so summarizing everything added by everyone above:

2x Black Knights (52pts)

• WS3 T4 W2 I3 LD6 AS 2+
• 2S 4(6) attacks and 2S3 attacks with Killing Blow
• Can move as ethereal (no march unless within 12" of general or brings general with them - loses ethereal move then)
• Heals 1+Level per IoN (needs to stay close to caster or bring one with them - loses ethereal move then)
• Character joining hurts movement and can't benefit from Banner of the Barrows unless Wight king.
• Crumbles when general dies

1x Blood Knight (50pts)

• WS5 T4 W1 I5 LD7 AS 2+
• 3S 5 (7) attacks and 1 S4 attack.
• Frenzied with LD 7
• Heals 1 wound per IoN
• Vampire joining doesn't help LD unless Lord (i.e. frenzied tests unless BSB rerolls or banner of discipline added). Character does benefit from Flag of Blood Keep.
• Vampiric unit so can always march and ignore general's death.

So my opinion is this:

Blood Knights are fairly priced compared to Black Knights. If you compare the two units built at the same points, Blood Knights will have half the wounds yes. But their attacks are far superior. They are attacking before most rank and file, and hitting a lot of units on 3+ without the need for a banner to facilitate it. Elves and chaos might prove a problem for them though. Their main advantage is their ability to move independent of the general, to move fast and their banner granting them a 4+ ward against shooting and most spells is huge. A vampire character with a lance, MR 2 amulet, OTS and an enchanted or charmed shield would be very valuable in this unit.

Black Knights are ideal as a defensive unit to protect your characters and use their killing blow against enemy armor and characters. Their quick healing with armor save makes them great as a bunker.

Summary:

Blood knights operate as a solid hammer away from General. Black Knights protect the general or guard his unit with a solid flanker, they aren't much of a hammer though. That function is how you decide which of the units to use.

 

[filescraps]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is that Black Knights are Special and Blood Knights are Rare.
Which means you have to give up a TG / ME to get the Blood Knights which is a massive drawback and that the group ends up with like 5 wounds total which means that a single bad roll on dangerous terrain cuts your fighting power by 20%.

 

[Banat]

If I've got the points in larger battles then yes I'll have a go at fielding both. For some reason this morning I've only just "discovered" the Varghulf... as in I knew about it but never really analysed the stats in depth... I'm surprised I haven't seen more people touting them in their armies... It seems to have pretty hardcore stats for the price. In a larger army you could take both that and a Black Coach, run them in support of each other and they'll mow their way through most things... Alternatively just take two Ghulfs for more attacks but less magical awesomeness?

 

[Blutsauger]

Black Knights with a Vampire in the unit are vastly superior to Blood Knights. They resurrect better, are cheaper, and are just as tough. In the second and subsequent round their lack of strength isn't a problem because, in essence, they are simply wound counters for your Vampire characters, who do NOT lose any killing power after the first round of combat.

Blood Knights work effectively without an attached character, but they don't make as good a bunker unit. They are too expensive and you can't raise them as effectively. Also important to consider is the law of diminishing returns, in that Blood Knights in the second rank effectively lose two attacks each. Not really a huge issue, but it means if you want a decent sized bunker unit for your Vampire you are not only paying through the nose, but you're losing all those attacks as well.

Blood Knights are... ok on their own. They really DO suffer from rubber lance syndrome. If they don't break their enemy on the first round (and with Steadfast, that's unlikely) they lack the ranks and numbers to continue the fight effectively in the second and subsequent rounds. God help them if they lose a round of combat. If they run into anything remotely tough, they can be in serious trouble. Dwarves with a 5++ Parry save, Elves with ASF, Chaos Warriors, anything with a decent S and that is likely to hang around is going to give them trouble. You have to be very careful with them to get the most out of them, and for such a fragile unit I just think they're too expensive. I still take them, but because they're a theme choice, not because they're a solid unit.

 

[robtion]

If I've got the points in larger battles then yes I'll have a go at fielding both. For some reason this morning I've only just "discovered" the Varghulf... as in I knew about it but never really analysed the stats in depth... I'm surprised I haven't seen more people touting them in their armies... It seems to have pretty hardcore stats for the price. In a larger army you could take both that and a Black Coach, run them in support of each other and they'll mow their way through most things... Alternatively just take two Ghulfs for more attacks but less magical awesomeness?

At 2500pts I have taken 2 terrorgheists and a varghulf which adds up to 625pts exactly. Played them against Skaven and they were a very effective team :konrad:

 

[najo]

Black Knights with a Vampire in the unit are vastly superior to Blood Knights. They resurrect better, are cheaper, and are just as tough. In the second and subsequent round their lack of strength isn't a problem because, in essence, they are simply wound counters for your Vampire characters, who do NOT lose any killing power after the first round of combat.

Blood Knights work effectively without an attached character, but they don't make as good a bunker unit. They are too expensive and you can't raise them as effectively. Also important to consider is the law of diminishing returns, in that Blood Knights in the second rank effectively lose two attacks each. Not really a huge issue, but it means if you want a decent sized bunker unit for your Vampire you are not only paying through the nose, but you're losing all those attacks as well.

Blood Knights are... ok on their own. They really DO suffer from rubber lance syndrome. If they don't break their enemy on the first round (and with Steadfast, that's unlikely) they lack the ranks and numbers to continue the fight effectively in the second and subsequent rounds. God help them if they lose a round of combat. If they run into anything remotely tough, they can be in serious trouble. Dwarves with a 5++ Parry save, Elves with ASF, Chaos Warriors, anything with a decent S and that is likely to hang around is going to give them trouble. You have to be very careful with them to get the most out of them, and for such a fragile unit I just think they're too expensive. I still take them, but because they're a theme choice, not because they're a solid unit.

I think taking 4 blood knights, gear them up with all the options and then throw a Vampire hero in there tooled up as I laid out above and you have a unit that has 2+ 4++ vs shooting. 2+ 2++ verses magic. 16 S7 attacks on the charge. 16 S5 on followup rounds. 5 S4 attacks. They aren't useless, nor would they have rubber lance. It would weigh in at almost 500 pts total though. But that unit would run around, picking its fights and hitting hard.

 

[Blutsauger]

I think taking 4 blood knights, gear them up with all the options and then throw a Vampire hero in there tooled up as I laid out above and you have a unit that has 2+ 4++ vs shooting. 2+ 2++ verses magic. 16 S7 attacks on the charge. 16 S5 on followup rounds. 5 S4 attacks. They aren't useless, nor would they have rubber lance. It would weigh in at almost 500 pts total though. But that unit would run around, picking its fights and hitting hard.

It's also a unit that doesn't provide any Look Out, Sir! protection for your Vampire, and only needs to take two or three wounds to be practically useless. I mean, you could always use it to chase off chaff units but I expect bigger things from a 500 point unit.

They're not a terrible unit. I usually take a unit of 5 with the Flag of Blood Keep and they do ok, but I really expect more for their price tag.

 

[Valnir the Reaper]

I think taking 4 blood knights, gear them up with all the options and then throw a Vampire hero in there tooled up as I laid out above and you have a unit that has 2+ 4++ vs shooting. 2+ 2++ verses magic. 16 S7 attacks on the charge. 16 S5 on followup rounds. 5 S4 attacks. They aren't useless, nor would they have rubber lance. It would weigh in at almost 500 pts total though. But that unit would run around, picking its fights and hitting hard.

You're a brave man to think you'll be picking your fights with frenzy. Chaff, chaff, and more chaff.

 

[najo]

You're a brave man to think you'll be picking your fights with frenzy. Chaff, chaff, and more chaff.

Lol, that might be true. But they're mobile enough to avoid allot of chaff. If you throw BSB on that vampire they can rerol those frenzy checks.

I do think the unit and the vampire's LD is low. At least make the vampire an 8. Even better make vampire a 9 and blood knights an 8. I'd settle for both having an 8! But for elite vampires to have same LD as a basic human?

 

[Valnir the Reaper]

Lol, that might be true. But they're mobile enough to avoid allot of chaff. If you throw BSB on that vampire they can rerol those frenzy checks.

I do think the unit and the vampire's LD is low. At least make the vampire an 8. Even better make vampire a 9 and blood knights an 8. I'd settle for both having an 8! But for elite vampires to have same LD as a basic human?

It's not even the frenzy checks, it's the forced overrun. Proper angle on a unit of warhounds puts your 500+ point unit way out of position for 30-40 points.

 

[Von Calyptra]

A vampire character with a lance, MR 2 amulet, OTS and an enchanted or charmed shield would be very valuable in this unit.

Wouldn't the Other Trickster's Shard force you to reroll some of the ward saves granted by the Flag of Blood Keep?

 

[Valnir the Reaper]

Wouldn't the Other Trickster's Shard force you to reroll some of the ward saves granted by the Flag of Blood Keep?

Yes. Definitely don't take OTS in Bloods.

 

[grix]

I like the idea of Blood Knights but just find them filling a spot where they are not as effective (in my lists) at their role. Which is to keep my Vamp alive.