Book of Arkhan, Staff of Damnation, and Blood Drinker clarification....

[Astorre]

Really more 3 questions but here it goes.....
Can you use the Book of Arkhan multiple times in one magic phase because it is a Necromancy spell as long as you don't roll a 1 & it loses its power for the game and as long as you have power dice for it?
When you use the Staff of Damnation can you use the Helm of Commandment to boost the WS of one of the units that have been affected by the Staff, as long as the Vampire with the Helm isn't in Close Combat?
And if my Vampire with Blood Drinker restores wounds on my unit, but the unit hasn't attacked yet, will the model that is brought back by the Blood Drinker get to attack that phase?
Thanks.....

 

[_Revan_]

Yes, the Book of Arkhan (like all bound spells) are cast as if they were "normal" spells, which as per the Necromancy rule can be cast multiple times.

You would not be able to use the Helm of Commandment because you have to trigger the ability in the Combat Phase.

They would definitely be able to attack (assuming its position would allow it to as far as supporting attacks etc). The only stipulation is that they would not get any bonuses for charging, such as lances.

 

[Fallen Angel]

1. Yes you can, see _Revan_'s reply.

2. I say yes you can since the FAQ says:

Q. If the Staff of Damnation is successfully cast upon a unit or
character, do any applicable special rules apply. For example, if the
unit had charged this round and was armed with lances would it get
a +2 Strength bonus? (p86)
A. All rules that would apply in the next Close Combat phase
also apply to the attacks made by the Staff of Damnation.

I interpret that as if you can use it in the close combat phase then you can use it when staff of damnation is cast.

3. Yes they can but would not benefit from any charging bonuses, see the rules for IoN for details.

 

[Danceman]

2. The HoCommandment wouldn't work. You haven't put the helms effect on the unit yet thus can't claim it. If you consider what you have to say in order to make it work "But I was going to put the helm on that unit." As Revan also says, its activated in the close combat phase, which hasn't happend yet.

Both Revan and Fallen Angel are correct on 1 and 3.

Cheers, D.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Hmm, Danceman certainly has a point here.. Maybe.... Ok, maybe I've been playing it wrong but not one of my opponent has commented on it yet.

 

[Astorre]

I appreciate it. I was tryna decide between using the Book or the Staff & it seems like the Book might be a better idea considering how much I love VHD. I'll have to try out the staff sometime though.....

 

[Forge]

You may use the helm because the helm does not specify WHEN you must designate the helms use only that it affects only ONE unit. when ever you choose to assign it, it must be declared that its use will be on a unit before dice are rolled from that unit.

once the helm is designated it cannot be changed until the following turn.

In most cases I assign mine at the beginning of the combat phase unless im using the staff, but I could technically assign it at the very beginning of the turn, but thats a possible downfall for me.

 

[Danceman]

I disagree. It tells you when you declare which unit who is to benefit from the helms ability. It does not say "nominate a unit to have the wielders WS for that turn"(or words to that effect) but rather it says that you are allowed to grant them their WS for that close combat phase. Its not a passive ability but an ability you grant at the start of each close combat phase that the wearer of the helm is not in combat.

The keyword is "that" and the sentence is written in present tense.

 

[Bishop]

I concur with Danceman!

The HoC effect occurs for "that" Close Combat phase. Thus, it must be the close combat phase in order for the HoC wearer to "pass-on" his WS to the desired unit.

There are no rules to allow the HoC to be used in any other phase of the game.

 

[Forge]

"that close combat phase" can be interpreted as that turns close combat phase just as easily as your interpretation. the only difference is the former interpretation has a FAQ to back it up, although its not specific, the lack of helm assignment instructions leads me to disagree with you whole heartily.

and technically

"that close combat phase" implies the "next close combat phase" as it could not be any other close combat phase but the next. its one word and its not even a convincing word that does anything but detract from the FAQ's "applies in the next close combat" ruling.

the only legitimacy to the other side of the argument I can see is that your saying by the use of one word "That" makes up for the missing 1-2 sentences that are supposed to explain when your supposed to designate the helm, which in my eyes is reaching considering all these other weapons and spells work for the staff like Vanhel's ect whats stopping a vampire from instilling his fighting prowess in a group of skeletons earlier. whats he say? "Nope can't do it yet have to wait a couple minutes"

my example is that of a logical one, one could argue against me saying well whats stopping a vampire from doing magic before moving? I would say back "nothing, but you have to have some structure to the game to keep it stream line"

having the helm effects work in the magic phase cannot break the game everything works fluidly, a vampire can assign the helm during the magic phase the staff happens and then be vanheled into combat and then the helms effects could not work in the close combat phase unless he is freed from combat before the assigned unit strikes blows (as per the FAQ allowing a engaged vampires combat to be concluded first and then the helms use works)

 

[Vlad the Acolyte]

Both sides of the arguement are compelling. The rules for HoC state quite clearly that it should be used in the Close Combat Phase. But the FAQ example does suggest that any 'rules' that come into play in the 'next Close Combat Phase' would also apply at the time of the Staff of Damnation free attacks. Using the example, the rule that lances give +2 St only applies in the Close Combat phase. Therefore, the similarities are strong, which is why i vote for HoC applying to combat when using Staff of Damnation. I dont think this gives an unfair advantage in game terms and just adds to the strategy of the game. The two items do add up to 70 Pts, and restricts your choice of other magic items to take as well, so all things should be roughly equal (in theory).

It would have been usefull if the FAQ clarified this a bit more, but then the FAQ guys probably get really fed up with all of these fine detail questions. Therefore, remember the Most Important Rule.

 

[Astorre]

Sorry, I have another question about the Staff before I use it. Will the second row (and possibly the third) of any units within 12" get to make their supporting attacks?

 

[Vreith]

Sorry, I have another question about the Staff before I use it. Will the second row (and possibly the third) of any units within 12" get to make their supporting attacks?

Yes it has been errated that this does happen, so horde ghouls will get 3 attacks from each line of ghouls affected. GG non horde get 2 because of ranks etc. KB still applies for them as per normal too, as well as +1 hit banner.

Best if you have enough dice to cast VHD on the unit you want to do some damage with because (even tho the writing on VHD says CC phase) they errated it to be:

Q. If the Staff of Damnation is successfully cast upon a unit which
has had Vanhel’s Danse Macabre successfully cast upon it earlier in
the turn while engaged in combat, does the unit benefit from the
re-rolls from Vanhel’s Danse Macabre? (p86)
A. Yes.

Book for Arkhan (the black) & Staff of damn ares some of the best bound items in all of warhammer, & righty so

 

[Astorre]

Well thats just fantastic haha....

 

[Bravo_10]

I agree with Bishop and Danceman about the HoC. There's just no way that it's legal to say, "I'm going to activate it in the next CC phase, so it applies." You CANNOT activate it in the Magic Phase, and I think that's the end of it.

 

[Dklyn]

I actually disagree with the experts here .

While the HoC does say for THAT close combat phase, so does the VDM effect and the FAQ says that that effect is included with the staff of damnation as well as any other effects that would apply for that CC phase. I guess I can't see any reason why VDM was intended to combine with the staff but not HoC. *shrug*

 

[Bishop]

I actually disagree with the experts here .

While the HoC does say for THAT close combat phase, so does the VDM effect and the FAQ says that that effect is included with the staff of damnation as well as any other effects that would apply for that CC phase. I guess I can't see any reason why VDM was intended to combine with the staff but not HoC. *shrug*

The difference is that VHDM can be cast before activating the SoD. Thus, the unit is affected VHDM! (Even though it's effects normally do not come into play until the CC phase.)

There is absolutely NO way to use the HoC during the magic phase (or at anytime outside of the CC phase).

 

[Dklyn]

The difference is that VHDM can be cast before activating the SoD. Thus, the unit is affected VHDM! (Even though it's effects normally do not come into play until the CC phase.)

There is absolutely NO way to use the HoC during the magic phase (or at anytime outside of the CC phase).

Before starting, I should mention that I have yet to have the SoD work for me as I 1)rarely bring it 2) almost always gets dispelled when I do, so personally this question is more academic than anything

You may cast VDM in the magic phase before using SoD, but VDM very specifically says it's effects do not start until the next CC phase. It's not a case of it normally not coming into play until the CC, it's that the spell says its effect doesn't start until the CC phase. SoD wouldn't be usable in conjunction with VDM except FAQ says so. The wording for VDM is exactly as danceman described HoC.
My opinion for HoC is similar to forge in that there's little to indicate that you're suppose to select the unit in the CC phase and at no other time. I feel like if the basis of when the HoC may be centers around the word THAT... well I don't see it as a hardfast rule . If you're casting a spell which affects your unit in the following CC phase, there's nothing incorrect about calling it "that CC phase" since there's only 1 CC phase a turn.

It would be nice if the description specifically said "during the CC phase" or "the unit can be selected at any time" but it doesn't say either so we are left a little in the dark.

To me, the intention is that the unit makes all attacks in the magic phase just as though he was attacking in the CC phase, with VDM buffs, lances charges and all. Saying that a unit has access to all the buffs it would use in the CC EXCEPT HoC due to the word that seems strange to me. The FAQ about a vampire that is in combat at the beginning of the phase but resolves his combat and is no longer in combat and can then use the HoC shows there's a lot of flexibility for when the helm is used. Granted, it's still during the CC phase but the point is there doesn't seem to be a rigid time for when the helm is meant to be used and then at no other time.

So, at best it seems a little vague and until more is said, I suppose we'll just figure out our own style.

 

[Clayman66]

In my opinion, and much as I'd like to be able to see it the other way around, HoC cannot be used in conjunction with SoD. I say this because, like quite a few army book/BRB rulings, VHD states:

"If the target unit is engaged in close combat, in the next close combat phase, all models in the unit benefit fromblah blah blah..."


However, as has already been mentioned, HoC says :

"for that close combat phase."

Although this may seem minor, to me it comes across as something that was missed when they were proof reading the BRB Most examples I come across for "similar" effects to VHD elsewhere seem to use the "next" wording. Between that and the fact the HoC requires the vamp to not be in combat himself, it seems RAI would be that HoC only gets used/takes effect/etc in the combat phase - not during the magic phase.

Otherwise surely you could use HoC, followed by VHD on the target unit & SoD, THEN have yourself (including your HoC) VHD'd into combat? This leads me to believe you couldn't use HoC for that (present ) combat phase, since you are now in combat. Since the SoD/HoC combo requires the rule to apply in this combat phase, as the previous magic phase would refer to this combat phase as the next, I don't see how you could apply HoC to attacks made as a result of using SoD in this scenario, and unless I'm mistaken on a different rules aspect here (please point it out if I am!), that would all be legal (except for the HoC/SoD, maybe ).

Kinda reminds me of an old White Dwarf article about RAI generally winning out over RAW in virtually all cases where its not clear - which usually just means a compromise with your opponent on what you both agree RAI are in a given scenario. Ah, back when that magazine was worth the dent in my shrapnel collection

Sorry for the poor wording/structure, I'm half asleep

 

[autti]

How do people usually go around measuring the 12" bubble of Staff of Damnation? The precies wording says models withing 12", not units. So do you really measure each and every model, or do you give the attacks for the whole unit that has at least one model within 12" of the caster? With wide horde formations in play this impacts greatly the amount of attacks. I think the RAW is pretty clear, but I'd like to know how you usually play this?

 

[UmbraMortuum]

How do people usually go around measuring the 12" bubble of Staff of Damnation? The precies wording says models withing 12", not units. So do you really measure each and every model, or do you give the attacks for the whole unit that has at least one model within 12" of the caster? With wide horde formations in play this impacts greatly the amount of attacks. I think the RAW is pretty clear, but I'd like to know how you usually play this?

Huh, never noticed that. My group has always played it as "units which have a model within 12"". We may need to reassess that :?:

 

[Clayman66]

How do people usually go around measuring the 12" bubble of Staff of Damnation? The precies wording says models withing 12", not units. So do you really measure each and every model, or do you give the attacks for the whole unit that has at least one model within 12" of the caster? With wide horde formations in play this impacts greatly the amount of attacks. I think the RAW is pretty clear, but I'd like to know how you usually play this?

I measure the 12" bubble and count any model whose base is wholly or partially within that bubble to be affected.

I figure, usually GW differentiates between models/units, and more often than not its very obvious why they did so. In this case, its really not so obvious in my opinion, but I think in this particular instance RAW also constitutes RAI

The other thing I was just thinking with regard to SoD/HoC combo is that mention of the close combat phase in such a manner (in the HoC entry) does suggest, to myself and the people I play with at least, that the HoC is intended to be used in the close combat phase. Still, I'd assume some discussion on this is required if we're not sure

 

[Forge]

In my opinion, and much as I'd like to be able to see it the other way around, HoC cannot be used in conjunction with SoD. I say this because, like quite a few army book/BRB rulings, VHD states:

"If the target unit is engaged in close combat, in the next close combat phase, all models in the unit benefit fromblah blah blah..."


However, as has already been mentioned, HoC says :

"for that close combat phase."

Although this may seem minor, to me it comes across as something that was missed when they were proof reading the BRB Most examples I come across for "similar" effects to VHD elsewhere seem to use the "next" wording. Between that and the fact the HoC requires the vamp to not be in combat himself, it seems RAI would be that HoC only gets used/takes effect/etc in the combat phase - not during the magic phase.

Otherwise surely you could use HoC, followed by VHD on the target unit & SoD, THEN have yourself (including your HoC) VHD'd into combat? This leads me to believe you couldn't use HoC for that (present ) combat phase, since you are now in combat. Since the SoD/HoC combo requires the rule to apply in this combat phase, as the previous magic phase would refer to this combat phase as the next, I don't see how you could apply HoC to attacks made as a result of using SoD in this scenario, and unless I'm mistaken on a different rules aspect here (please point it out if I am!), that would all be legal (except for the HoC/SoD, maybe ).

Kinda reminds me of an old White Dwarf article about RAI generally winning out over RAW in virtually all cases where its not clear - which usually just means a compromise with your opponent on what you both agree RAI are in a given scenario. Ah, back when that magazine was worth the dent in my shrapnel collection

Sorry for the poor wording/structure, I'm half asleep

you have to remember, our army book was written in 7th, "that" and "the next" there is NO literal difference, "that close combat phase" is the same as the "next close combat phase" there are ZERO instructions on WHEN to appoint the helm, other then instructions onto HOW. you can do it at the start of the game for all that matters, but you cant change it, and the unit still has to be within 12 inches once the combat phase rolls around.

why does EVERYTHING work for SoD but the helm of commandment? no one has yet to answer this question yet, why is it so much more OP then +1 to hit from banner of the barrows, +2 strength from lances, rerolls from VHD, strength 10 from okkama's mind razor ect. I dont understand the conflict here.

the only argument from the side that says "the helm of commandment doesn't work for staff of damnation" is " but but the helm description says THAT!!!"

which in my book is extreme reaching, the helm was usable for SoD at ard boys which is plenty of reason for me to use it this way.

 

[UmbraMortuum]

I agree with Forge.

All rules that would apply in the next Close Combat phase also apply to the attacks made by the Staff of Damnation.

The relevant word there is ALL. Is the HOC a rule that would apply in the next close combat phase? Yes. So that is the answer until such time that it is FAQ'd.

In any case, the objection seems to be "I don't like the chronology", well, tough titties. That's the way it's written. I don't see what the issue is anyway, sure once you use the HoC with the SoD you have to use it with the same unit in that close combat phase. So? The only issue would be if you used it for a different unit- which would be the same as using it on a unit, rolling half the dice and then saying "hang on, I'll use it on this other unit instead but still keep the results of those dice rolls..."

Now fluff-wise, it would make more sense if you could use the HoC on one unit with the SoD and then on a different one in the CC phase if you wanted- but that's a different debate...