Following on from my request for Dwarf tips which got an excellent response, I'd like to be a bit cheeky and ask about some tips on how to handle Bretonnians.
Many thanks in advance
John
Many thanks in advance
John
Bretonnian Tips
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I've had a bit of experience against them, especially recently.
The thing to remember against Bretonnia is that their knights are really nasty on the charge, but actually rather ineffective on following turns. As a general tactic, I think you can thus approach fighting them one of two ways. Go magic heavy, and Van hel spam heavy E.g. forbidden lore lord, necro, book of arkan, powerstones galore and then charge them first. Or have large units, take the charge on the chin, and then grind them away. If you go for this second approach, some fast cheap stuff like wolves and bat might be useful to drive fleeing knights off the field. Bretonnians also have extreme difficult in dealing with large flyers. They have long flanks on their knight units and only a fairly standard stone thrower as a rare choice, although if they take two and are good at guessing your large monster might be in trouble. If you go this route it's important to remember that once within 12" they can't shoot you as its their minimum range.
Universal ward save for all knights plus a few other units if they pray (which they almost certainly will) means that they get a 6+ ward save all the time and 5+ ward on S5 or greater attacks. This means S5 is actually a rather bad place to be, as any knight will get a 4+ followed by a 5+. So, always good to boost your vampires strengh if going for combat vampires.
Banshees can be very nasty for them, however grail knights (rare knight choice) have magical attacks, so avoid combat with them. Even a small banshee unit can take on a small (5-6) man knight unit and beat them. Varg less so as they can arm all their archer units with flaming arrows. Although only wounding on 6's, one lucky round can seriously affect him, and they have a flamming lance similar to ours. Lycini/flying charging vamp can rob knights of the charge, but will probably need walking death as a minimum, and maybe to be a BSB as well to avoid crumble damage.
Pegasus knights are very nasty for going bunker hunting and aiding kights units as they break ranks. Try to either magic them or use Varg/wraiths to take down. Again, flying/lycini vamp might be useful for this role as well. Blood knights are likely to be kited by fast cavlary or feed a relatively cheap unit if not carefully protected.
As a rule, their leadership is pretty average, so fear and especially terror can work well. However their special kights (questing) can re-roll all Psychology tests, grail knight are ItP, and one of the core knights (Errants) basically don't have to worry about it when charging. All the knights will generally charge you if they need to. The other units are much less brave.
They also have a virture, similar to our powers, which allows them to killing blow large target on the charge. Would be nasty if used on a large mount or black coach.
The thing to remember against Bretonnia is that their knights are really nasty on the charge, but actually rather ineffective on following turns. As a general tactic, I think you can thus approach fighting them one of two ways. Go magic heavy, and Van hel spam heavy E.g. forbidden lore lord, necro, book of arkan, powerstones galore and then charge them first. Or have large units, take the charge on the chin, and then grind them away. If you go for this second approach, some fast cheap stuff like wolves and bat might be useful to drive fleeing knights off the field. Bretonnians also have extreme difficult in dealing with large flyers. They have long flanks on their knight units and only a fairly standard stone thrower as a rare choice, although if they take two and are good at guessing your large monster might be in trouble. If you go this route it's important to remember that once within 12" they can't shoot you as its their minimum range.
Universal ward save for all knights plus a few other units if they pray (which they almost certainly will) means that they get a 6+ ward save all the time and 5+ ward on S5 or greater attacks. This means S5 is actually a rather bad place to be, as any knight will get a 4+ followed by a 5+. So, always good to boost your vampires strengh if going for combat vampires.
Banshees can be very nasty for them, however grail knights (rare knight choice) have magical attacks, so avoid combat with them. Even a small banshee unit can take on a small (5-6) man knight unit and beat them. Varg less so as they can arm all their archer units with flaming arrows. Although only wounding on 6's, one lucky round can seriously affect him, and they have a flamming lance similar to ours. Lycini/flying charging vamp can rob knights of the charge, but will probably need walking death as a minimum, and maybe to be a BSB as well to avoid crumble damage.
Pegasus knights are very nasty for going bunker hunting and aiding kights units as they break ranks. Try to either magic them or use Varg/wraiths to take down. Again, flying/lycini vamp might be useful for this role as well. Blood knights are likely to be kited by fast cavlary or feed a relatively cheap unit if not carefully protected.
As a rule, their leadership is pretty average, so fear and especially terror can work well. However their special kights (questing) can re-roll all Psychology tests, grail knight are ItP, and one of the core knights (Errants) basically don't have to worry about it when charging. All the knights will generally charge you if they need to. The other units are much less brave.
They also have a virture, similar to our powers, which allows them to killing blow large target on the charge. Would be nasty if used on a large mount or black coach.
That's a very good list ergo-sum.
I'd just add that virtues are a bit worse as they count in the 50pts magic limit, but there are a few things to watch out for.
-Banner of the lady negates your rank bonus. This is a big ouch for some units, which need static CR to win.
-There's a kit called duelist. It involves a virtue that allows him to reroll to-hit and to-wound rolls in challenges and a 10 point item, Gauntlet of the Duel which states you can't refuse challenges. Be sure to always have unit champs.
-They have a banner that makes them cold blooded. This is a very good item and a killer against us, it's usually put on Questing Knights or alike, altough Questings don't see as much as they used to because greatsword now only adds +1 str.
-There's a stupid virtue that adds +d6 to the first charge made by a character and his unit. This thing hurts. A lot.
-Flaming arrows are not as big a nuisance as they were, as current edition rulse say you can't make the regen save for that attack only, you don't lose it for the rest of the game like you used to.
-Wraiths with a Banshee are your best friend, take multiple units if you can. Lord has Ld 9 and Paladins have 8.
-As ergo mentioned, str 4 and 5 are almost the same. Str 5 wounds on 2+ instead of 3+, but 3+/6+ is the same as 4+/5+.
I'd add more but...most would be just repetitions of what ergo already said. They're overall not a very good army, they do however have on of the few (if not the only) unit in the game, that can kill our GG Deathstar in a single turn. A train of Grail Knights with some nasty characters.
I'd just add that virtues are a bit worse as they count in the 50pts magic limit, but there are a few things to watch out for.
-Banner of the lady negates your rank bonus. This is a big ouch for some units, which need static CR to win.
-There's a kit called duelist. It involves a virtue that allows him to reroll to-hit and to-wound rolls in challenges and a 10 point item, Gauntlet of the Duel which states you can't refuse challenges. Be sure to always have unit champs.
-They have a banner that makes them cold blooded. This is a very good item and a killer against us, it's usually put on Questing Knights or alike, altough Questings don't see as much as they used to because greatsword now only adds +1 str.
-There's a stupid virtue that adds +d6 to the first charge made by a character and his unit. This thing hurts. A lot.
-Flaming arrows are not as big a nuisance as they were, as current edition rulse say you can't make the regen save for that attack only, you don't lose it for the rest of the game like you used to.
-Wraiths with a Banshee are your best friend, take multiple units if you can. Lord has Ld 9 and Paladins have 8.
-As ergo mentioned, str 4 and 5 are almost the same. Str 5 wounds on 2+ instead of 3+, but 3+/6+ is the same as 4+/5+.
I'd add more but...most would be just repetitions of what ergo already said. They're overall not a very good army, they do however have on of the few (if not the only) unit in the game, that can kill our GG Deathstar in a single turn. A train of Grail Knights with some nasty characters.
well, the main downfall of brets in this matchup is their leadership - so most good bret players will try and overcome it as much as possible.
1) anyone with the grail vow (grail knights and some characters) are ItP
2) knights errant are ItP on the charge
3) questing knights can re-roll failed psychology tests
by combining these, a brets player can still keep a fair amount of control over his army, as long as a lord with Ld9 is nearby. Still a terror bomb can rip the army apart. As a bret player myself, I've had it happen....
they are going to get the charge on you and can hit hard enough with their lance formations and static CR to crush even a large undead unit on average rolls If they fail to get through though, your wrap-around of unit will slaughter them. Watch out on giving them overruns that are to their advantage and march block with bats and the like as much as possible.
They have no offensive magic for you to really worry about, and magic defence is often not much more than 2 level 1's with 3 scrolls between them, so capitalize on as much as you can here.
1) anyone with the grail vow (grail knights and some characters) are ItP
2) knights errant are ItP on the charge
3) questing knights can re-roll failed psychology tests
by combining these, a brets player can still keep a fair amount of control over his army, as long as a lord with Ld9 is nearby. Still a terror bomb can rip the army apart. As a bret player myself, I've had it happen....
they are going to get the charge on you and can hit hard enough with their lance formations and static CR to crush even a large undead unit on average rolls If they fail to get through though, your wrap-around of unit will slaughter them. Watch out on giving them overruns that are to their advantage and march block with bats and the like as much as possible.
They have no offensive magic for you to really worry about, and magic defence is often not much more than 2 level 1's with 3 scrolls between them, so capitalize on as much as you can here.
Death Stalker
Skeleton
Vampires are excellent at beating bretonians, most bret players i know fear playing vampires more than any other army
Mircalla Karnstein
Skeleton
Brettonians can be a tough nut to crack, if you face an experienced player, but generally VC are one of the best equipped armies to beat them.
Grail Knights I find are the killer unit, in effect a unit of champions, immune to psychology, and will usually contain a cool magic banner/heroes dripping in virtues. You will face Grail knights, or the Brettonian player has gone mental. It’s likely to contain any magic users and at least 2 heroes which various virtues, and a BSB. This is often a Brettonian Death star unit, especially for new players. As with all Uber units, its got to kill allot of things to make its points back. Tar pit units are great here, Zombies are perfect, cheap and easily raised to keep these guy away from something useful. Banshee is fun to use on them, but they can often contain their general, so don’t expect great results. Law of metal, and pit of shades can also come in handy to try and kill them off.
Brettonian magic is average to poor. You shouldn't have to worry too much about offensive magic and you should be able to get off plenty of your own magic.
Brettonians are quick, but difficult to manoeuvre. Vulnerable to march blocking. The exception are Squires (light cav, rarely seen) and RAF units (Pegasus Knights, again I've not seen an army without them!). Most 2K Bret armies have at least 2 to 3 lances. The problem these guys face is that they go forward very well, but find it hard to change direction.
Combat is where Brets are best. They hit hard, and with a great save and ward save, (6+ goes to 5+ ward if you hit them with str 5 or above). Knights of the realm, the core Knight choice is best used against small or weak units, same to a degree with Questing Knights. Grail Kights are the killers. The Lance formation is great for all their Knight units, as it increases the number of attacks and adds rank bonus, for a 3 wide formation. Bretonian Heroes aren't bad either, BUT Vampires are better! Apart from the Grail Knight all lances suffer 2 major problems; firstly, after the first charge they lose the lance strength bonus (on the weapon, nothing to do with the Lance formation), this means if they are charged or failed to shatter a unit on the charge (much tougher to do against undead than any other army!) the Lance will struggle. The second problem is the long flanks of a Lance. If the lance is stuck in combat, and you can flank charge it, it loses its rank bonus, and it has huge flank to attack.
Men at arms are simply their for Brets to get a cheap core choice. Even your Zombies might take on these guys. Even the grail relic unit is only stubborn, and as such is still doomed against out numbering undead!
Brettonian shooting is poor. They can have a catapult, but we have dogs and bats to kill it, and their long bows are just nice easy points to gobble up. Smart players use them as a cheap table quarter holder/contester.
As such I think there are 2 units to concern yourself with, Grail Knights and the RAF. These I think are the stand out units. RAF (Pegasus Knights) are flying heavy cavalry. They are great for taking out small and weak units, have high toughness, multiple wounds, good save, lances and can FLY! Great for flanking, rear charging etc. Even better at taking on other flyers. Best answer is magic moves to get them into combat against something that will hurt them. The Varghulf is pretty nice for this. If it gets the charge in, it will slap down all but the largest of units. Banshee wail, if you can get near is good, as are ethereal, as you rarely see a hero and magic weapon in this unit and it lacks the ranks et al to kill a host by combat resolution quickly. Still a tricky unit to pin down and destroy.
Grave Guard and Black knights and their Wright King brothers are all great against Brettonians. Killing blow drives fear into the hearts of all Bret generals.
Summary:
Dance Macabre is your friend! Getting in the charge will often decide a game against Brets.
Out magic them to make sure your units are big and difficult to crumble, or can be kept fighting.
Great Weapon Guard are great can openers.
Take down the RAF by any and all means.
Bats are great, if you can avoid their RAF, to hunt down his catapult, archers and small men at arms units (dogs and small black knight units the same.)
Banshee works well against Knights of the Realm, Paladin Heroes, Questing Knights.
Once a Brettonian Lance formation is stuck in combat, try and have a unit ready to flank it. Dogs, raised Zombies et al. Magic move them into combat ASAP.
Grail Knights are you worst “Knightmare†(sorry bad pun). Your best bet is tie them up for as long as possible and keep them out of the game. Failing that, big Grave Guard unit, keep raising them at all costs and grind your enemy down. A vampire with Blood Drinker could be vital hear, but expect the Brets to try and kill your heroes quickly.
IoN is also your friend.
Grail Knights I find are the killer unit, in effect a unit of champions, immune to psychology, and will usually contain a cool magic banner/heroes dripping in virtues. You will face Grail knights, or the Brettonian player has gone mental. It’s likely to contain any magic users and at least 2 heroes which various virtues, and a BSB. This is often a Brettonian Death star unit, especially for new players. As with all Uber units, its got to kill allot of things to make its points back. Tar pit units are great here, Zombies are perfect, cheap and easily raised to keep these guy away from something useful. Banshee is fun to use on them, but they can often contain their general, so don’t expect great results. Law of metal, and pit of shades can also come in handy to try and kill them off.
Brettonian magic is average to poor. You shouldn't have to worry too much about offensive magic and you should be able to get off plenty of your own magic.
Brettonians are quick, but difficult to manoeuvre. Vulnerable to march blocking. The exception are Squires (light cav, rarely seen) and RAF units (Pegasus Knights, again I've not seen an army without them!). Most 2K Bret armies have at least 2 to 3 lances. The problem these guys face is that they go forward very well, but find it hard to change direction.
Combat is where Brets are best. They hit hard, and with a great save and ward save, (6+ goes to 5+ ward if you hit them with str 5 or above). Knights of the realm, the core Knight choice is best used against small or weak units, same to a degree with Questing Knights. Grail Kights are the killers. The Lance formation is great for all their Knight units, as it increases the number of attacks and adds rank bonus, for a 3 wide formation. Bretonian Heroes aren't bad either, BUT Vampires are better! Apart from the Grail Knight all lances suffer 2 major problems; firstly, after the first charge they lose the lance strength bonus (on the weapon, nothing to do with the Lance formation), this means if they are charged or failed to shatter a unit on the charge (much tougher to do against undead than any other army!) the Lance will struggle. The second problem is the long flanks of a Lance. If the lance is stuck in combat, and you can flank charge it, it loses its rank bonus, and it has huge flank to attack.
Men at arms are simply their for Brets to get a cheap core choice. Even your Zombies might take on these guys. Even the grail relic unit is only stubborn, and as such is still doomed against out numbering undead!
Brettonian shooting is poor. They can have a catapult, but we have dogs and bats to kill it, and their long bows are just nice easy points to gobble up. Smart players use them as a cheap table quarter holder/contester.
As such I think there are 2 units to concern yourself with, Grail Knights and the RAF. These I think are the stand out units. RAF (Pegasus Knights) are flying heavy cavalry. They are great for taking out small and weak units, have high toughness, multiple wounds, good save, lances and can FLY! Great for flanking, rear charging etc. Even better at taking on other flyers. Best answer is magic moves to get them into combat against something that will hurt them. The Varghulf is pretty nice for this. If it gets the charge in, it will slap down all but the largest of units. Banshee wail, if you can get near is good, as are ethereal, as you rarely see a hero and magic weapon in this unit and it lacks the ranks et al to kill a host by combat resolution quickly. Still a tricky unit to pin down and destroy.
Grave Guard and Black knights and their Wright King brothers are all great against Brettonians. Killing blow drives fear into the hearts of all Bret generals.
Summary:
Dance Macabre is your friend! Getting in the charge will often decide a game against Brets.
Out magic them to make sure your units are big and difficult to crumble, or can be kept fighting.
Great Weapon Guard are great can openers.
Take down the RAF by any and all means.
Bats are great, if you can avoid their RAF, to hunt down his catapult, archers and small men at arms units (dogs and small black knight units the same.)
Banshee works well against Knights of the Realm, Paladin Heroes, Questing Knights.
Once a Brettonian Lance formation is stuck in combat, try and have a unit ready to flank it. Dogs, raised Zombies et al. Magic move them into combat ASAP.
Grail Knights are you worst “Knightmare†(sorry bad pun). Your best bet is tie them up for as long as possible and keep them out of the game. Failing that, big Grave Guard unit, keep raising them at all costs and grind your enemy down. A vampire with Blood Drinker could be vital hear, but expect the Brets to try and kill your heroes quickly.
IoN is also your friend.
Another point to make about the lance formation is that if they did not charge, or in the second turn after charging, they only get to attack with their front rank, which would usually be three knights/two knights and a hero plus three horses. This means they won't actually inflict many casulties then, and can even flee from stuff like skeletons or ghouls if you've kept them large enough and they get a slightly sub par turn of dice rolling (usually, either of the core knights unit will only average one wound against skeletons if there are no heros. If you have 4 ranks, then they should run).
Also worth noting that any unit that flees, for any reason, or if a challenge is refused, then that unit no longer recieves the 'free' ward save.
Also worth noting that any unit that flees, for any reason, or if a challenge is refused, then that unit no longer recieves the 'free' ward save.
Ah the Brets, my fav army (or maybe VC, not sure). Grail Knight Deathstar (just one simple example):
10 Grail Knights with FC
Bret Lord with Silver Lance of Blessed
Bret Paladin BSB with Banner of Lady + Virtue of Duty
This together means:
3 Ranks + Banner + BSB + Duty + Outnumber (probably) = 7 SCR
Banner of Lady = no ranks haha (so most of your units will only have 1 SCR against this)
Silver Lance makes lord become beastly with auto hit and probs 2+ kills.
only 3 GK won't get attacks so 14A from them, normally 3+ hit, 2+ wound.
Just some of the many Grail Knight goodies.
Another thing noone has mentioned is mobility, a key factor Brets have is Purebreed Warhorses, this means barding does not slow movement so if you line up your BK (either type) against them and don't vanhels into them you will probably be charged.
10 Grail Knights with FC
Bret Lord with Silver Lance of Blessed
Bret Paladin BSB with Banner of Lady + Virtue of Duty
This together means:
3 Ranks + Banner + BSB + Duty + Outnumber (probably) = 7 SCR
Banner of Lady = no ranks haha (so most of your units will only have 1 SCR against this)
Silver Lance makes lord become beastly with auto hit and probs 2+ kills.
only 3 GK won't get attacks so 14A from them, normally 3+ hit, 2+ wound.
Just some of the many Grail Knight goodies.
Another thing noone has mentioned is mobility, a key factor Brets have is Purebreed Warhorses, this means barding does not slow movement so if you line up your BK (either type) against them and don't vanhels into them you will probably be charged.
The ability to summon zombies at an angle to redirect really nasty grail knight units is key. Due to their extra charge range, as mentioned by Order, such a unit will pretty much devistate anything, even a powered up unit of grave guard or blood knights. You only tactic is not to engage, like any dethstar, and try to pull into into difficult terrain.
Bretonnians also hate corpse carts. If you rely on your charge doing the damage, even one knight removed due to ASF on our infantry can seriously reduce their capacity to do damage.
Bretonnians also hate corpse carts. If you rely on your charge doing the damage, even one knight removed due to ASF on our infantry can seriously reduce their capacity to do damage.