Challenged Tbat

[Skittelz1981]

Can a Tbat, mounted by a Ghoulking that is locked in a challenge use all its attacks even the shriek? Obviously aimed at the enemy locked in challenge.

Technically he is the mount of the challenged rider, does that enable him to use the shriek in shooting phase and his CC attacks?

 

[Blutsauger]

Yes, so far as I know. Maybe not the shriek, I'm not really sure about that since it's a shooting attack made in the shooting phase, not a close combat attack. A Breath weapon, when used in close combat, is used in the close combat phase so it doesn't work quite the same way.

 

[Sanguinus]

The shriek is not a shooting attack, it's a special attack that's used in the shooting phase. And the rule explicity states that it can be used when the T-bat is locked in combat, so yes.

 

[Blutsauger]

The shriek is not a shooting attack, it's a special attack that's used in the shooting phase. And the rule explicity states that it can be used when the T-bat is locked in combat, so yes.

Yes, but if the TBat is locked in a challenge during the shooting phase, is it's special not-really-a-shooting-attack-but-is-an-attack-done-in-the-shooting-phase directed against any target the TBat pleases, or must it be directed against the challenger?

 

[Thindol]

I'd say it could be done at whatever it wants. Since for challenges it only specifies melee attacks.

 

[Fodderboy]

The shriek would go off during your shooting phase. Unless you are into the 2+ round of combat (you recieved a charge and both survived your opponent's round of combat), the challenge hasn't been initiated yet, so the shriek would hammer the unit.

Once the challenge is underway, the shriek would nail your co-challenger.

 

[midean]

I'd say it could be done at whatever it wants. Since for challenges it only specifies melee attacks.

Incorrect. Pg. 103 under characters and mounts it states "If riding a mount, that mount must direct it's attacks against either the other competitor or that competitors mount (if riding one). Nothing in there says anything about just melee attacks.

 

[benfm]

I'd say it could be done at whatever it wants. Since for challenges it only specifies melee attacks.

Incorrect. Pg. 103 under characters and mounts it states "If riding a mount, that mount must direct it's attacks against either the other competitor or that competitors mount (if riding one). Nothing in there says anything about just melee attacks.

Not quite.

The shriek occurs in shooting phase.
According to page 102 of the same book it says, challenges are issued at the start of the combat round. Then it goes on to say in the last sentence on that page that the challenge (paraphrasing) only applies during that combat.

Since the shriek doesn't occur in combat you can use against the whole unit.

 

[Blutsauger]

I'd say it could be done at whatever it wants. Since for challenges it only specifies melee attacks.

Incorrect. Pg. 103 under characters and mounts it states "If riding a mount, that mount must direct it's attacks against either the other competitor or that competitors mount (if riding one). Nothing in there says anything about just melee attacks.

Not quite.

The shriek occurs in shooting phase.
According to page 102 of the same book it says, challenges are issued at the start of the combat round. Then it goes on to say in the last sentence on that page that the challenge (paraphrasing) only applies during that combat.

Since the shriek doesn't occur in combat you can use against the whole unit.

The shriek doesn't occur in the shooting phase, but if the challenge has progressed into a second round of combat then, at the time you are entitled to make your shriek attack, you will still be locked in "that" combat.

It's just another shmozzle caused by GW's typically fluffy rules construction. They could have just made the Tbats shriek into a shooting attack, but no, they had to make it all fancy and now it's needed a half dozen FAQs and clarifications to make it fit into the rules.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Haha, one of the best questioins though, i encountered this question yesterday on the french VC forum. Since i hadnt seen it here and the answers were all vague and uncertain like here i thought id post it in here lol.


TBH i think it goes like this.

Shriek is not a shooting attack.
So before challenges are issued you can shriek at the unit which is in cc.
After challenges are issued, locking the mounted tbat in combat with the challenger, all attacks are directed against the challenger (shriek already happened so no more in round 1 of challenge)
In consecutive rounds of challenge, theyre still locked in it, basically and theoretically away from whatever units they were part of before and away from the physical battlefield. This then enables the mounted Tbat in challenge to direct its shriek at the only target it has: the challenger he is facing.

 

[Powl]

Related question, what about Breath Weapon & stomps? Are they directed at the challenged model, or the unit?

 

[Skittelz1981]

yes to both for challenged model.
at least if the monster is in a challenge

 

[benfm]

Page 48 of the VC army book.

Death Shriek

Is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting Phase, even if the TG has marched, charged or is engaged in close combat.

A Death Shriek is a magical attack and wounds suffered are distributed as if from shooting.


Logical rules,
It is a 'special attack' - It is not a shooting attack, but can only happen in the shooting phase.
The TG cannot use the shriek in close combat.
The Death Shriek cannot target a single model - it can only hit the unit and must be distributed as if it was a shooting attack.
The effects of a challenge can only happen in combat.

soooo...the Shriek hits the whole unit during the shooting phase regardless of what's happening with challenges in the CC phase.

 

[Blutsauger]

Page 48 of the VC army book.

Death Shriek

Is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting Phase, even if the TG has marched, charged or is engaged in close combat.

A Death Shriek is a magical attack and wounds suffered are distributed as if from shooting.


Logical rules,
It is a 'special attack' - It is not a shooting attack, but can only happen in the shooting phase.
The TG cannot use the shriek in close combat.
The Death Shriek cannot target a single model - it can only hit the unit and must be distributed as if it was a shooting attack.
The effects of a challenge can only happen in combat.

soooo...the Shriek hits the whole unit during the shooting phase regardless of what's happening with challenges in the CC phase.

I agree with your analyses, but I wouldn't consider it a closed case. If my opponent wanted the Shriek directed at the character in the challenge, then I'd be happy to oblige.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Lol benfm,
you post the rule saying it CAN shriek in close combat.

When a tbat is mounted and locked in a challenge, the challenged opponent is either a single model, i.e. a dreadlord on dragon, or the opponent is placed 'outside' his unit to resolve the challenge.
Theoretically, ive seen it written, both challengers go to another place, not taking part of any unit they were with.
This means that a tbat mounted and locked in challenge can use ALL his attacks including the shriek against his b2b opponent.

 

[Skittelz1981]

When it says it cannot tarhet a single model in a unit, it simply means it cannot snipe or choose a hero in a unit.
In a challenge that is not the case, the only b2b unit is the challenger.

Also a tbat can shriek against any model that is walking alone like a lone wizard that is not in a unit. since it becomes a unit himself, consisting of a single model.

 

[benfm]

Lol benfm,
you post the rule saying it CAN shriek in close combat.

When a tbat is mounted and locked in a challenge, the challenged opponent is either a single model, i.e. a dreadlord on dragon, or the opponent is placed 'outside' his unit to resolve the challenge.
Theoretically, ive seen it written, both challengers go to another place, not taking part of any unit they were with.
This means that a tbat mounted and locked in challenge can use ALL his attacks including the shriek against his b2b opponent.

I agree with your point re single models since technically its a unit all by itself..just not when they are part of another unit.


However your reading that rule wrong,

First bit: How it works
Is a special attack that can be used against a single unit in the Shooting Phase,

Second bit:
even if the TG has marched, charged or is engaged in close combat

This doesn't mean it can Shriek in the close combat phase, it means despite the global rule that says you cant shoot while in engaged in combat you can still use the shriek during the shooting phase while engaged in combat.

 

[Skittelz1981]

I didnt say it was able to shriek in the close combat.
I said its able to shriek when engaged in close combat.
Yet during a challenge, the tbat is engaged in close combat and the only unit it is in b2b with its that challenged opponent. It can therefore use its shriek in shootingphase at the challenged opponent. Since the challenged opponent is the only unit in b2b, he is the only valid target and a legal one.

 

[Smogg]

The shriek doesn't occur in the shooting phase, but if the challenge has progressed into a second round of combat then, at the time you are entitled to make your shriek attack, you will still be locked in "that" combat.

Actually p.102 state:
"These two characters must direct all of their attacks against each other - they cannot be attacked by any other model for that round of close combat."

Furthermore on p.103:
"If both competitors survive a challenge, and the combat continues, then they will continue to fight in the next round of close combat.."

So the challenge rules apply when fighting a round of close combat. Special actions done in the shooting phase cannot be considered part of any round of close combat. You can therefore disregard being in a challenge while using the shriek.

 

[Skittelz1981]

So this would imply that:


1. in a challenge where the enemy is a character in a unit, the Tbat can shriek against the unit, then continue the challenge in combat phase.

2. in a challenge against a single model, the tbat can shriek against the single model since it has to shriek at the unit it is in b2b contact with.

 

[Smogg]

Yes. A single model is also a unit, so when distributing the wounds from the shriek, they will all be allocated to that model.

Note though that a tbat does not have to sheik at the unit in btb contact. That restriction only apply for the Tomb Banshee. But maybe that is a different discussion entirely.