Charge dilemmas

[neke]

Gentlemen,

I have some dilemma with respect to charge moves. I’d be grateful if you could dispel my doubts.


Case no. 1- charge distance.

The red regiment charge the blue one.

The distance needed to reach charged object is 5” or 8”? In the rulebook states: “Successful chargers now move into base contact with the enemy. They move directly forward, but are permitted one wheel of up to 90° as they move, and another of unlimited arc once in contact. As many models as possible from the two units must be brought into base contact”. There is not mentioned whether the first wheel is free or has to be settled as normal wheel (described on the page 14)?


Case no. 2- charge feasibility

The regiment no. 1 would like to charge the regiment no. 3

In this case the regiment no. 1 is not able to wheel around the bottom right corner because it would interfere with the regiment no. 2. Does it mean that the charge on the regiment 3 is not feasible or the regiment no. 1 can rotate back, around the bottom left corner and go forward afterwards?

Thank you,

Neke

 

[Swoosh]

Case number 1:

The charge distance is 5 inches. Wheeling and stuff is resolved after you figure out if the charge is succesful. This because of the Charge subphases:

1. Declare charges

2. Resolve charge reactions

3. Co back to step 1 until all units you wish to charge have done so.

4. Move all charging units, in any order you like (This is where the free wheel comes in.)

Case number 2:

By the rulebook a wheel is per definition a forwards move (P. 14):

"When performing a wheel, the leading edge of the formation moves forward, pivoting round one of the front corners."

So in case number 2 the blue unit cannot charge as you are not allowed to declare an impossible charge (as the charging unit cannot wheel) Rulebook p. 16:

"A unit cannot declare an impossible charge - i.e. one that it cannot possibly complete, either because the enemy unit is outside of the chargers' maximum possible charge range, or because intervening obstructions make it impossible for the unit to make a charge move that allows it to move into contact"

 

[neke]

Thank you for prompt and clear answer!

 

[najo]

Nice answers Swoosh!

 

[GhoulKing505]

Just a question out of curiosity on the first example. If you were to barely complete the charge (ie. your charge roll was low enough to only give you 5") would you only clip the unit you were charging or would you just say you made the charge and maximize bade contact? Just out of curiosity on how it works. I play mostly friendly games but I want to make sure it's as much the same ruleset as in tournaments.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Just a question out of curiosity on the first example. If you were to barely complete the charge (ie. your charge roll was low enough to only give you 5") would you only clip the unit you were charging or would you just say you made the charge and maximize bade contact? Just out of curiosity on how it works. I play mostly friendly games but I want to make sure it's as much the same ruleset as in tournaments.

Even if the charge is made at minimum you move as much as necessary to maximize combat.

 

[GhoulKing505]

Hmm. Interesting. I didn't think that was the case. But after further reading of the rules you are definitely right. It literally says, "A charging unit can move an unlimited amount."

I'll remember that for the future. That's really nice to know. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Swoosh]

Thank you for prompt and clear answer!

You're welcome buddy

Nice answers Swoosh!

Cheers! It has become abundantly clear to me that knowing the rules wins games

 

[The Sun King]

I love the charging rules of 8th - I hope they keep the streamlined rules in 9th.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I love the charging rules of 8th - I hope they keep the streamlined rules in 9th.

Provided that they add a few more helpful diagrams.

The worst part about the 8th charging rules is that I'd guess only about 40% of even tournament players actually understand how they work. The number of times that I've had to pull out the rulebook mid-game to describe how anything other than a straight-ahead front-to-front maximizing charge works. I literally had to pull two rules judges and a couple bystanders over to get my opponent to accept it a couple tournaments ago.

 

[The Sun King]

What? Really? I think they are really easy...

 

[Swoosh]

Provided that they add a few more helpful diagrams.

The worst part about the 8th charging rules is that I'd guess only about 40% of even tournament players actually understand how they work. The number of times that I've had to pull out the rulebook mid-game to describe how anything other than a straight-ahead front-to-front maximizing charge works. I literally had to pull two rules judges and a couple bystanders over to get my opponent to accept it a couple tournaments ago.

How did your opponent interpret the charge rules then?

 

[Mad 'At]

This I can agree with. There seams to be a few rules that practically every player reads differently. It has been getting better in recent years, as more and more of these players are corrected. Charging has been one of the areas where problems have occurred, and I think a lot of it arise from veteran players who assumes things are like they were in previous editions. I've seen people confused about the order in which charges are declared and more so about when you actually roll for the charges and then move the charges. Something I did incorrectly from the start of 8th was that when I charged one unit with multiple units I moved them one at a time, maximizing with each unit in turn. Another thing that I know many still play incorrectly is dangerous terrain, which units tests it and when. This is understandable since the rules describing this are a mess of redundant information and inconsistent wordings.

 

[neke]

Just one more question- about the charge direction.

Let’s assume the following case:

The red unit charges the blue one. In accordance with the rulebook, page 21 it is clear that the charge has to be carried out on the right flank, because:

“If a charging unit straddles two zones, then the unit is considered to be in the zone where the majority of the models in its front rank are.” Moreover the picture below this sentence in the rulebook reflects them very well. On the other hand, charge on the flank looks a bit ridiculous, cause the units stand face to face to each other, that is why logic whispers to some that the charge should be guided into the front.

I raise the question because when logic fails to some of my opponents, it is every time good to refer to this outstanding forum


Finally the noob’s question about the charge redirection tactic:

Above case is well known as a redirection tactic- when supplemented by one additional blue unit, behind the exiting one. But from my perspective is a bit missed, because when the red unit will not gonna charge, then we probably stay in such a clinch, because:

1. charge with unit no. 1 in most cases does not make sense (because is much weaker then red one)

2. when we move our unit no. 2 into left side, the red unit can whipe the unit no. 1 out and redirect his overrun on the unit no. 2

3. when we move our unit no. 2 into right side, the red unit can regroup and charge next turn into the rear of unit 2

The only way is to charge on the red unit with both blue ones- but that we’d like avoid probably.


Please correct me if somewhere there is a gap in my reasoning.

 

[The Sun King]

With your first example: You charge the flank. Look at this way: Your big horde can get into that juicy flank easily with that deployment, so would they just charge straight ahead or swing around and hit the enemy in the flank?

I'm not sure if you had a second question?

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

How did your opponent interpret the charge rules then?

I criss-cross charged my grave guard into his temple guard, and my skeleton warriors into a saurus unit that was in their flank. They could baaaaaaaarely make the wheel but just clipped the last guy. Only my champion was in combat. He thought he slid over (like in 7th), or that I couldn't complete the charge because I couldn't maximize (though I was maximized...as far as I could). He was just really unhappy about it.

Other times people get angry at me for "janky-charging" warmachines. I.e. when you use your wheel to hit the flank of a warmachine when you're in its front arc. That's pretty normal.

People also don't often understand why they have to charge my chaff in the flank when it's right in front of them. Majority of front rank...


I too think the rules are easy, and if you just read the rules you'd know. But people don't actually read them they just play and have that one guy in their club who "knows the rule" teach them the game. But his is a mishmash of 8th edition and legacy rules he thinks are still in there stretching back 3 editions, so they have all sorts of funky ideas about how the game works.



Also I've noticed an upswing in people telling me to take terror and panic checks. Seriously guys...when have undead ever given a shit about that? Never? (I still roll them and say I passed without looking at the dice. More fun that way )

 

[Nicreap]

What you want to do is not move unit two and let their unit charge into unit 1. That way their red unit is how it looks in the third picture on your post, where he now presents his flank to your unit 2 which hasn't moved. I am fairly certain your last picture would be an illegal move, they couldn't make that wheel without hitting unit 1, so they would have to reform, meaning your turn unit 1 can charge his flank and unit 2 charges the front.

 

[neke]

at the beginning

I'm impressed how well the forum works. I've "visited" already a large amount of different kinds of forums. In most cases they served to treat complexes of speakers. Thank the society of this place for being bright spot of good manners in the dark night.


Ad rem,

Thanks for making me sure, that the red unit is obligated to charge the flank of the unit 1 (in case it wants charge on the unit no. 1 at all)


@ The Sun King

The question no. 2 is how such a charge redirecting (by the bue player) can be useful. It could serves as a charge holder at most, because the red player has to be stupid to charge the unit no. 1 into the flank

Nevertheless such a move (use the unit no. 1 as a redirector) by the blue player sets him in the stalemate position, cause when the red player do not move, the blue player will be somehow bounded in such a position too. If he moves in the left side- in the next turn red player will charge the unit no.1. If he moves in the right side the red player can wipe the unit no. 1 out or try to wheel in the direction of the unit no. 2. It looks like stalling (playing for the time).


@ Nicreap

You are right. I exareggerated with the red's move. My intention was to regroup the red unit in the direction of the unit no. 2. In next blue player's turn, he could run further in the right direction or do something else with the unit no. 2 but at the same time to set the unit no. 1 in the same position as on the pic. no. 2 of the post no. 14. That the waste of resources.


Actually I can not find any good reason to use unit no. 1 as a redirectior, standing them as on the pic. no. 2 of the post no. 14

 

[Nicreap]

You use it for that exact reason, it stalemates your opponent, he has to either reform and not move, or charge it's flank giving your unit 2 a charge into his flank. It allows you to move your unit 2 much closer to his unit, so if he does nothign your unit 2 and unit 1 now have almost guaranteed charges. it works best if unit 2 is a unit of cavalry who get a strength bonus on the charge, but +1 CR is always nice.

 

[neke]

thanks!

 

[Sanguinus]

Expanding slightly on what @Nicreap said: it's a safeguard against units with Frenzy, who have to charge the nearest unit (assuming they fail a leadership test). Useful to kite DE Witch Elves; beware of it being used against our Vargheists.