Need some expertise(lol) on Facing WoC on the battlefield with VC...i just massacred with ease (little luck and placement) a DE army...am absolutely clueless what to do against a WoC army who will more than likely be Mark of Slanesh...sick armor saves....IM LOST lol plz help meh
Charging WoC!
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Aspiring Executioner
Skeleton
Ok first of all what do you generally have in your VC army and at what points level do you usually play? A few general tips on facing WoC. They are very strong and hardy warriors but aren't very numerous except for marauder heavy armies. Their Exalted Heros and Chaos Lords can quite easily tear our Vampires apart in combat unless you completely tool up a Vampire Lord and even then they are dangerous.
Our Wight units (Grave Guard, Black Knights and Wight Kings) are gold against them. One sneaky KB against their very expensive characters will kill them. They also are very effective against the ordinary units due to Kb negating their armour save and all are quite capable of having S6 attacks to make a mess of their normal saves anyway. Blood Knights are damn effective as long as you screen them properly. Probably most effective against all the monster units, warriors and knights.
If they have a magic heavy army, beware. Infernal Gateway is an incredibly good way of vaporising your General and his unit in one go. At least one scroll and preferably two will be needed especially if they have multiple casters with gateway. They also have a few nasty combos against us such as Black Tongue making a failed casting an automatic miscast and then using Infernal Puppet to modify the miscast roll by D3. Again, a very good way of killing your general.
Theres a lot more to consider and whatnot but we will need what you have in your list and what your opponent usually brings to give you a better idea on how deal with them.
Our Wight units (Grave Guard, Black Knights and Wight Kings) are gold against them. One sneaky KB against their very expensive characters will kill them. They also are very effective against the ordinary units due to Kb negating their armour save and all are quite capable of having S6 attacks to make a mess of their normal saves anyway. Blood Knights are damn effective as long as you screen them properly. Probably most effective against all the monster units, warriors and knights.
If they have a magic heavy army, beware. Infernal Gateway is an incredibly good way of vaporising your General and his unit in one go. At least one scroll and preferably two will be needed especially if they have multiple casters with gateway. They also have a few nasty combos against us such as Black Tongue making a failed casting an automatic miscast and then using Infernal Puppet to modify the miscast roll by D3. Again, a very good way of killing your general.
Theres a lot more to consider and whatnot but we will need what you have in your list and what your opponent usually brings to give you a better idea on how deal with them.
you will outnumber them by miles and be able to outmanouvre them easily. zombies are your friend and can be used to bog down the expensive units like knights and warriors or at least slow them down.
unless they go pure magic you will dominate the phase,some slaanesh spells and some of tzeentch spells won't even effect you remember.
blood knights are a must take here. the best can opener in the game and easily capable of smashing up any chaos unit they hit.
beware infernal puppet and black tongue items which can mess up your vampires.
my basic tactics vs WoC is fast zombie raising vamp to march block or charge units on turn one. bolster your numbers and advance on him. smash him with knights engage with large infantry blocks and get those flank rear charges in to beat them. use units like dire wolves to zip about and get some good charges off and to protect against marauder cavalry.
if you engage head on you will loose to superior fighting ability and armour. engage on your terms with the right numbers and you shouldn't have a problem. i find WoC one of the easiest armies to beat with my vampires as they are so predictable and have such low numbers.
unless they go pure magic you will dominate the phase,some slaanesh spells and some of tzeentch spells won't even effect you remember.
blood knights are a must take here. the best can opener in the game and easily capable of smashing up any chaos unit they hit.
beware infernal puppet and black tongue items which can mess up your vampires.
my basic tactics vs WoC is fast zombie raising vamp to march block or charge units on turn one. bolster your numbers and advance on him. smash him with knights engage with large infantry blocks and get those flank rear charges in to beat them. use units like dire wolves to zip about and get some good charges off and to protect against marauder cavalry.
if you engage head on you will loose to superior fighting ability and armour. engage on your terms with the right numbers and you shouldn't have a problem. i find WoC one of the easiest armies to beat with my vampires as they are so predictable and have such low numbers.
Wraiths can be ery usefull as well! Especially vs warriors! Be sure to use them vs their warriors armed with two handed weapons or additional handweapon since that will make the wraiths S5 most effetive! Get them under the influence of VDM and they'll smash those warriors up good!
Watch out for marauder harsemen with mark of khorne since they will hit much harder than they look capable of! Especially if armed with flails! Altough, a small dire wolf unit will easilly(spelling?) redirect those pesky pony riders away from the main battle due to their frenzy.
I would also watch out for rear charging them with zombies! Sure you'll negate their ranks and get +2 for rear charge BUT those zombies wont even sratch the metal of those warriors anbd the rear rank of warriors will turn those zombies int minced meat in seconds! The mot efective use of zombies vs WoC is to raise a small uit behind him when you have engaged him in close combat. Then just let them stand their 1" behind to catch them if they flee. Also, most warrior units only come in 12 strong so negating their ranks and getting a rear charge will only give you a +3 advantage, but I can assure you that that rear rank will smash up about 7-8 zombs givinh you opponent a +4-5 advantage instead wich can be VERY devastating agains your other undead unit in the same combat since all of your units must crumble if you loose. So, zombies an very well bring down your entire army rather than helping out.
Also, remember that chaos knights make magical attacks so don't try to bogg them down with etherals.
Thats all for now, hope I've helped!
Watch out for marauder harsemen with mark of khorne since they will hit much harder than they look capable of! Especially if armed with flails! Altough, a small dire wolf unit will easilly(spelling?) redirect those pesky pony riders away from the main battle due to their frenzy.
I would also watch out for rear charging them with zombies! Sure you'll negate their ranks and get +2 for rear charge BUT those zombies wont even sratch the metal of those warriors anbd the rear rank of warriors will turn those zombies int minced meat in seconds! The mot efective use of zombies vs WoC is to raise a small uit behind him when you have engaged him in close combat. Then just let them stand their 1" behind to catch them if they flee. Also, most warrior units only come in 12 strong so negating their ranks and getting a rear charge will only give you a +3 advantage, but I can assure you that that rear rank will smash up about 7-8 zombs givinh you opponent a +4-5 advantage instead wich can be VERY devastating agains your other undead unit in the same combat since all of your units must crumble if you loose. So, zombies an very well bring down your entire army rather than helping out.
Also, remember that chaos knights make magical attacks so don't try to bogg them down with etherals.
Thats all for now, hope I've helped!
I concur with Bork i have very little trouble facing warriors. The mobility of the enemy can be their downfall. An opponant last week had an all cavalry army led by chaos lord on dragon. End of his turn 1 he was more or less breathing on me. My dogs and bats ran/flew behind him i moved my troops backwards and got cav units on the side. Second turn he couldnt/didnt want to charge so he turned to the flanks to face off my cav. My troops rushed forward then van hels'd into his newly exposed flanks. The chaos lord got zombied and finally on turn 6 got bloodknight treatment after they had mopped up the rest.
Against marauder cav i use bats and pump their no's with summon creatures. This keeps them away from harassing my flanks then dogs charge their flanks.
I find wraiths and banshee priceless vs magic light woc as she can negate armour if she screams well and if knights have paid the upgrade for lances cant hurt you back. Just watch out for those ensorcelled weapons as they will mince your wraiths. Just have them floating round the flanks and rear screaming at them. There are never normally many knights to kill.
Curse of years works wonders as well, cast on an 8 (i think) 6's to kill without ward and forces your opponant to use 2-3 dice to dispel it in his phase taking away some nasty spell potential against you.
Against woc specifically i usually run 20 grave guard with great weapons, full command and banner of barrows 7 wide, wight king inside with either drakenhoff or sok/nightshroud combo then behind i have bunker lord with helm and lots of magic, then necro on cc (balefire)with 2x power stones with vanhels and another cc with balefire. Then wraiths and core and black knights. This means if he goes magic heavy he's at -2 to cast. When (if) engaged your gg have a great opportunity of striking 1st (2 bounds from cart) 2/3 attempts from necro and if you got a forbidden lore lord more from him, then the book. Hitting warriors on 2's wounding on 2's with -3 armour save. Oh and the potential killing blows too.
Absolutly awesome unit to have vs them. Just need to make sure you gg get into combat!
But remember warriors want to get into combat! so might be easier to engage them as opposed say a wood elf list.
Against marauder cav i use bats and pump their no's with summon creatures. This keeps them away from harassing my flanks then dogs charge their flanks.
I find wraiths and banshee priceless vs magic light woc as she can negate armour if she screams well and if knights have paid the upgrade for lances cant hurt you back. Just watch out for those ensorcelled weapons as they will mince your wraiths. Just have them floating round the flanks and rear screaming at them. There are never normally many knights to kill.
Curse of years works wonders as well, cast on an 8 (i think) 6's to kill without ward and forces your opponant to use 2-3 dice to dispel it in his phase taking away some nasty spell potential against you.
Against woc specifically i usually run 20 grave guard with great weapons, full command and banner of barrows 7 wide, wight king inside with either drakenhoff or sok/nightshroud combo then behind i have bunker lord with helm and lots of magic, then necro on cc (balefire)with 2x power stones with vanhels and another cc with balefire. Then wraiths and core and black knights. This means if he goes magic heavy he's at -2 to cast. When (if) engaged your gg have a great opportunity of striking 1st (2 bounds from cart) 2/3 attempts from necro and if you got a forbidden lore lord more from him, then the book. Hitting warriors on 2's wounding on 2's with -3 armour save. Oh and the potential killing blows too.
Absolutly awesome unit to have vs them. Just need to make sure you gg get into combat!
But remember warriors want to get into combat! so might be easier to engage them as opposed say a wood elf list.
Sry i am responding so late been busy...its a 2250 list and we Proxy for anything we like...just me and a friend...the graveguard list looks amazing...but throwing all your eggs into one basket against an army who can easily just remove that basket seems a little risky though...i have seen Infernal Gateway go off many times...at str 11-12 not nice...He also is talkin about doing somthing different than he normally does...he normally plays heavy on Chaos Knights and uses Disc Boys cant think of much else that can be more effective against VC...but i mostly play my High Elves against him i am just now getting into my VC... thx for the responses!
The grave guard with regen banner are very hard to blast through no matter what attacks them. T4, generally striking first at ws 7 needing 2's to hit then 2's to wound kiling blow and the if hit you got an armour save (though not great) or regen. The enemy needs 4's to hit you (maybe 5's) so they will be around for a while. Next turn flank your protagonists with wraiths or knights and voila a dead enemy unit.
Also have you tried the coach? works v well againts chaos due to their limited shooting. If you can get it to fly then all those hgh strength hits very handy.
Also have you tried the coach? works v well againts chaos due to their limited shooting. If you can get it to fly then all those hgh strength hits very handy.
hitting on 2s? max you can hit on is 3s no matter if ur WS is 10. and he will hit back on 4s have to be double his WS or more for it to go to 5 or 6s but thx im def. gonna use that Grave Guard build...looks so sexi hahaha
Aspiring Executioner
Skeleton
He probably is including the effects of the Banner of the Barrows which gives all the wight units +1 to hit. Combined with the helm makes it 2+ to hit as long as you're not attacking heros or lords and even then you hit on 3's. Using the Drakenhof Banner is effective but generally frowned upon in friendly games and is usually penalised heavily in tournaments.
It's quite possible to survive a charge by any of their units without Drakenhof, just be smart about it. If you can, challenge at every oppurtunity especially when they have no characters as the champ will either only kill yours or be forced to the back which is win-win for you. The less models he kills, the more likely they will survive as there are now more wounds around to absorb the inevitable loss to CR. I've been doing this tactic a lot recently and it's saved me quite a number of times. Having the BSB around too also has quite often saved my units from completely dying or today from my general vampire crumbling.
It's quite possible to survive a charge by any of their units without Drakenhof, just be smart about it. If you can, challenge at every oppurtunity especially when they have no characters as the champ will either only kill yours or be forced to the back which is win-win for you. The less models he kills, the more likely they will survive as there are now more wounds around to absorb the inevitable loss to CR. I've been doing this tactic a lot recently and it's saved me quite a number of times. Having the BSB around too also has quite often saved my units from completely dying or today from my general vampire crumbling.
Thankyou executioner i was indeed including the +1 to hit from the banner. Ok you think the drakenhoff banner a little unfriendly try this, (for the newer members) wight king with sword of kings and nightshroud. If the enemy charges you and challanges with characters (they have to due to eye of gods) accept with wight king. Now because of the nightshroud the attacker loses any charging bonus' loses always strikes 1st if he has it and his initiative drops to 1! Meaning with or without the aid of miasma from a cart or van hels, your wk hits first. With banner of barrows and helmed lord behind he will be hitting any chaos character on 3's. Of which now you need to score a 5+ to kil him instantly. (ward saves and monster characters withstanding) a nasty combo cheap and effective, esp against any assassins out there. OK not gaurenteed to work (what is?) but with his t5 and 3 wnds has a good chance to survive.
so i played my chaos friend...ended up being a massacare...moreso because he rolled a 12 on his general and he fled right into impassible terrain in turn 5 and he quit...the Graveguard were a complete success although the Drakenhof banner really didnt accomplish anything and dont see it wealth yet (at least in that game 125 points woulda been well spent else where) but my friend is saying he doesnt see the regen as the cheese part the whole hit on 2s wound on 2s and 6s are KBs was aggrivating him...I LOVE IT haha...but all in all im slowly understanding VC and its fun to be able to run the board and not have Blood Knights on the field (they are badass lookin units though =P)
well just wait until you come up against a shooting or magic heavy army. The t4 4+ armour save is good but against mass ranged attack they can be depleted very quickly and so the regen makes good use of itself. I agree that against some armies, Chaos in particular, it may not be all that inspiring but vs others can be worht its weight in gold.
Try being charged by a tooled up orc wyvern riding boss (with no flaming attacks) in the flank. I didnt have the always stike first from the cart as it was dispelled. He slammed in between him and the wyvern killed 5 GG. After regen 3 came back and they proceeded to killing blow him (after he failed a ward) and turned the game around.
Every item is situational. I feel i cant leave home without at least 2 scrolls, but against very magic light armies who cannot physically do much to you these are wasted. Against a gateway, skaven 13th spell force they are worth their weight in plutonium.
Im glad you won heavily and that the gg did the business for you. I myself fought warriors twice last night with 2 different trial lists for a tournament this weekend and in both games i killed him to a man for very little loss. Without a lucky gateway going off i find it extremely hard to lose heavily to warriors.
Try being charged by a tooled up orc wyvern riding boss (with no flaming attacks) in the flank. I didnt have the always stike first from the cart as it was dispelled. He slammed in between him and the wyvern killed 5 GG. After regen 3 came back and they proceeded to killing blow him (after he failed a ward) and turned the game around.
Every item is situational. I feel i cant leave home without at least 2 scrolls, but against very magic light armies who cannot physically do much to you these are wasted. Against a gateway, skaven 13th spell force they are worth their weight in plutonium.
Im glad you won heavily and that the gg did the business for you. I myself fought warriors twice last night with 2 different trial lists for a tournament this weekend and in both games i killed him to a man for very little loss. Without a lucky gateway going off i find it extremely hard to lose heavily to warriors.
Great advice and I concur with them. Banshees are great. Last time she killed an entire unit of chaos knights with one scream, stranding the BSB. Also, the nightshroud/sword of kings wight king is ace. So far mine has killed a chaos lord and a lizardmen oldblood.
WoC are pretty straight forward to deal with and there are some great advice in this thread.
WoC are pretty straight forward to deal with and there are some great advice in this thread.
yea i find it easier now that i semi understand VC to deal with WoC with VC rather than HE...also wanted to mention i overran into 1 unit of chaos knights and he rear flanked me. i had 21 models 7 wide so it was 7 on each...needless to say...graveguard whooped ass...with ASF he didnt even get to attack back and was done after 1 turn of combat...10 chaos knights obliterated...was a sight to see but yea my friend hated it lol
serves him right for putting 10 knights in a unit. 6 max is allhe should be taking. gratz on the win.
chaos warriors have huge combat potential if you simply allow them to line up and smash you. undead are one of the best armies for not letting that happen and unless he takes MoS on everything there going to fail some fear checks sooner or later especially on those marauders and if you can lock in him combat and outnumber him (you should alway) then its a matter of time before that unit autobreaks and it only takes a unit of 5 zombies raised behind them to ensure they die.
chaos warriors have huge combat potential if you simply allow them to line up and smash you. undead are one of the best armies for not letting that happen and unless he takes MoS on everything there going to fail some fear checks sooner or later especially on those marauders and if you can lock in him combat and outnumber him (you should alway) then its a matter of time before that unit autobreaks and it only takes a unit of 5 zombies raised behind them to ensure they die.
well it was 2 units of 5...one with 6...the most he brought against me in one game was 4 units of chaos knights...even naked those things are beasty...but i see dealing with them easier with my Vampire Counts now rather than my High Elves