Competative VC´s?

[Mikael.K]

Yesterday I was utterly trashed by an O&G list. I was down to my breaking point in round 2. We kept on playing, but regardless I got wiped in the end. Now this is something new for me as a VC player. These things rarely happened in 7th. I thought I had a balanced list and was shocked how fast it dissapeared from the board.

So, let the discussion begin. How do competative lists look like in 8th? From my limited experience, here is my view.

The lord: since we lack shooting we need magic to whittle down the enemy ranks. 30 orcs with add. choppas are pretty scary when they get to combat unmolested. So, we need a good caster. Been trying a caster/combat lord and I´ve found out that increased strength is better than lots of attacks. Against T4 stuff you really want to be wounding on 2´s.

Hero vampires: they seem very expensive for what they do. I will probably be using one to carry the helm and with the forbidden lore. 3 attacks in combat wont do much, especially when he costs almost 200pts! It´s all about support.

WK BSB: While beeing tough with T5 and 3W, they are by no means invincible. A good combat charachter will kill him if you fail to KB him first. I´d go with a ward save on this one. Other WK´s can be more offensive with the sword of kings and gem of blood.

Necromancers: wonderful little things. There to carry the dispel scroll and VHD. Great at repairing units and if you have several of them you can try the 1 dice spam. If one fails, the others just keep going.

Skeletons: they die very fast, even in big units. Will mostly use them as bunkers as we still need the banners. If I use them for combat, then they need to be 40 minimum.

Ghouls: a lot better IMO, but still keep them big, 30 or so. They are better taking charges than actually charging. That means that you can heal them up in your following round. If they charge and things go bad, you are stuck there 2 combat rounds before you can do anything. They take the punishment, dish some back and get healed up .

Fell bats vs Dire wolves: I´d go with dire wolves. Seems like they do the same things a lot cheaper. They can keep hard enemy units occupied one round of combat at least.

Grave guard: a must have unit in competative armies. Should be buffed with the helm for best effect. You really want those kills to count.

Rares: Vargulfs crumble very fast. Should take on lighter units to make sure he wins. Better have 2 or none IMHO. Coach seems like a good investment and I can see a use for wraiths aswell. Would have done a big difference in my last game. If I take wraiths, then I would probably be looking at some of the new dispel scrolls aswell.

What do you guys think? VC arent as good as they used to be. IMO we need to make competative lists to stand a chance against the new top armies (empire, O&G etc.).

 

[Isfimbur]

I have not yet played more then some test games in 8th as of yet. Watched a couple of games thou, so I'm familiar with the new rules and all. I'm going to play a couple of games this weekend with some mates. Ive got two lists ready. I don't have em with me. But ill try to remember some high lights.

First list - "lol? New and improved spell-lores? Vampire laser pew pew"

Lord:
Sword + 2 Attacks
armor 2+ save
talisman re-roll armor saves
Forbidden lore (lore of light)
Red fury

Basic idea is a lord that can whoop out some damage but still keep some buff-spells up on my core and grave guard.

Support Vamp:
Helm of command
???
forbidden lore (lore of beasts)

Basic idea is a bunker vampire who IoN for the most part of the game. But when I know my opponent has wasted most of his dispell dices try to get a +3 A + 3 S spell of on my lord.

Suicide purple sun Vamp:
Forbidden lore (lore of death)
Amu of lychni

Basic idea - Yeah, you know the deal. Cheap trickk awsome supperkiller. Wanna try it once atleast, so sue me.

Wight King:
Sword of kings
Dragonhelm? (+1 armor and fire immune)
potion of speed

Basic idea is to bring some punch to my Grave Guard unit. He will be effected by banner of barrows and hopefully always strike first from VanHels of corpse cart. If that fails a potion of speed to use at nasty Heroes.

Necro:
rod of power? (one use only +6 pd and kills the bearer or something)
VanHels

Basic idea - Well yeah, it kinda sucks to have suicide on the "to do list" at my only source for vanHels. But hey, that stick is saved for that critical magic phase when I need to get a spell out and roll shit.

Core -

Horde of Ghouls (lord goes in here)
25 man Skelly unit with spears
10 skelly bunker with cc + shield

special -

Black Knights + hate banner
18 Grave Guard + GW + Banner of barrows

Rare -

Vargulf (for unit control and such)
Black coatch? (can't remember if I field this in that list)

I might post the other list later. Now I got some work to do. I promise to post a battle report after the weekend.

 

[Dklyn]

Necromancers: wonderful little things. There to carry the dispel scroll and VHD. Great at repairing units and if you have several of them you can try the 1 dice spam. If one fails, the others just keep going.

I tried this once and wasn't a fan. Problem I have with several necros is where to put them if I put them in a unit that may get into CC, they are an easy kill. I ended up putting 2 of them in a bunker and the other two hiding behind other units to get hard cover and look out sir. I ended up hardly needing them since I usually threw down some bigger spells first anyways (summon horde, curse of years, winds of undeath etc) and only had a few dice to use Nehek on anyways.

Fell bats vs Dire wolves: I´d go with dire wolves. Seems like they do the same things a lot cheaper. They can keep hard enemy units occupied one round of combat at least.

Wholeheartedly disagree here. Not sure if you noticed but wolves lost fast cavalry rule i.e. free reform. Also fel bats look more expensive, but remember they get 2 attacks and 2 wounds each instead of 1 and 1 for wolves. This means that bats actually cost 10 pnts per wound/attack instead of 8. For the extra points, you get movement of 10 instead of 9 and the ability to treat ALL terrain as open, AND be able to declare charges at units that are behind other units (in essence, leap over one unit to attack the one behind it), and get free reform and have -1 for all ranged attacks to hit them.

If you're using them to tie up a hard unit, you're using them wrong IMO. These guys are meant to tie up siege or lightly armored skirmish and the like. It's true the wolves get rank bonus, but I don't think that really helps them get to the backlines/catch runners that much. If you want to tie up hard units, use zombies/skeletons who can get more than 1 wound from nehek. I'd say as a general rule, leave the puppies in the kennel for a competitive list

Rares: Vargulfs crumble very fast. Should take on lighter units to make sure he wins. Better have 2 or none IMHO. Coach seems like a good investment and I can see a use for wraiths aswell. Would have done a big difference in my last game. If I take wraiths, then I would probably be looking at some of the new dispel scrolls aswell.

Agree with varghulf, I'd also add that he's good for assisting skeletons/core to get some kills in. I personally have found the wraiths to be amazing and the black coach to be nice as well (although it has a nasty habit of soaking up the dice when I need them):mad2:. I'm a little confused by your saying you would've taken new dispel scrolls if you had wraiths. Most of the scrolls (dispel scroll excluded) allow the spell to still be cast as normal, so what good would they do for your wraiths? I think they'd be great whether you had wraiths or not.

Most everything else I agreed with.

 

[Mikael.K]

Wholeheartedly disagree here. Not sure if you noticed but wolves lost fast cavalry rule i.e. free reform. Also fel bats look more expensive, but remember they get 2 attacks and 2 wounds each instead of 1 and 1 for wolves. This means that bats actually cost 10 pnts per wound/attack instead of 8. For the extra points, you get movement of 10 instead of 9 and the ability to treat ALL terrain as open, AND be able to declare charges at units that are behind other units (in essence, leap over one unit to attack the one behind it), and get free reform and have -1 for all ranged attacks to hit them.

If you're using them to tie up a hard unit, you're using them wrong IMO. These guys are meant to tie up siege or lightly armored skirmish and the like. It's true the wolves get rank bonus, but I don't think that really helps them get to the backlines/catch runners that much. If you want to tie up hard units, use zombies/skeletons who can get more than 1 wound from nehek. I'd say as a general rule, leave the puppies in the kennel for a competitive list

Yes, that may be true but they still wont kill anything. Neither do dire wolves, but at least they are cheaper. I had 2 units of 3. They had a really hard time even against goblin wolf riders. I wasnt impressed. Also, I wouldnt dream of going up against hard enemy units with light troops like fell bats and dire wolves.

Agree with varghulf, I'd also add that he's good for assisting skeletons/core to get some kills in. I personally have found the wraiths to be amazing and the black coach to be nice as well (although it has a nasty habit of soaking up the dice when I need them). I'm a little confused by your saying you would've taken new dispel scrolls if you had wraiths. Most of the scrolls (dispel scroll excluded) allow the spell to still be cast as normal, so what good would they do for your wraiths? I think they'd be great whether you had wraiths or not.

The thing with the varghulf is that if you fluke your attacks, then he´s as good as dead. I charged in to support my skellie block, killed 2 or so. They munched through my skellies like knife through hot butter. The ´ghulf crumbled the same turn. He´s not particulary good against T4 stuff. Sqishy T3 things he can deal with though .

The I guess I wont be using the new scrolls then . Maybe a black periapt instead so that I may benefit from it in both my own and my opponents magic phase.


Also, what lore do you guys think our lord should have. I´m more and more convinced that our own lore is the way to go. Maybe have one of the new lores on a support vamp instead.

 

[Johnny B]

Rares: Vargulfs crumble very fast. Should take on lighter units to make sure he wins. Better have 2 or none IMHO. Coach seems like a good investment and I can see a use for wraiths aswell. Would have done a big difference in my last game. If I take wraiths, then I would probably be looking at some of the new dispel scrolls aswell.

If the Varghulf is dying to crumbling from full wounds, then you've probably used him wrong; I find he is best as a sweeper, clearing out scouts, war machines, missile troops, etc. Putting elites into the same combat as Core is risky business with VCs.

I was initially impressed with the Coach, then far less so when I saw it in play. Its inability to march kinda takes the shine off flying and it doesn't actually hit that hard for the points.

I'm looking at a tooled up combat Lord (someone has to kill those enemy units and my troopers sure as hell aren't doing it) and a Hero caster vamp (Lore of Beasts buffing a Red Fury lord is just silly amounts of damage :lol. I figure people can dispel spells, or you can fail to cast, but there's no arguing with a magic sword in the face.

 

[Mikael.K]

If the Varghulf is dying to crumbling from full wounds, then you've probably used him wrong; I find he is best as a sweeper, clearing out scouts, war machines, missile troops, etc. Putting elites into the same combat as Core is risky business with VCs.

Well, it´s not that hard to lose a combat with 4 points in 8th edition. I figured he could go in and rack up some kills, but that was not the case . I agree that he should be tasked with taking care of the enemy light troops and warmachines. You live and you learn :devil2:.

What gear/powers did you have in mind for your lord? I have a hard time letting go of my preciouss forbidden lore .

 

[Dklyn]

You said that fel bats and wolves do pretty much the same thing, I'm just pointing out that is not the case. For 2 extra points/wound (or attacks) you get a unit that is FAR more mobile. If you're trying to reach the backlines (which is one of the primary purpose of these units) the fel bats can do it much better than wolves and for only 2 points more per wound, it's well worth it to make sure they can get the job done.
As far as wolf riders, I don't know anyone that plays O&G so I don't know much about them. I can tell you from my experience that the bats have done much better for me than wolves (I have both ) in chasing down skinks, long bowmen (brets), even putting up decent fights against dwarven artillery since they have an easier time reaching them.

my two cents.

Also...
"Also, I wouldnt dream of going up against hard enemy units with light troops like fell bats and dire wolves."
"They can keep hard enemy units occupied one round of combat at least. " That's what I was referring to

 

[Mikael.K]

What I ment was that they can throw themselves into the way of powerful enemies, which will save my unit for a turn longer.

Wolves are M9, fell bats are M10. Not THAT big of a difference if you ask me. Maybe I´ll give the fell bats one more shot, but they have yet to prove themselves. As for wolf riders, lets just say that the wolf is a better fighter than the rider is .

 

[space cowboy]

I would recommend using your Fel Bats to hunt war machines (as mentioned earlier) and small vulnerable units (like small units of fast cav archers). A first turn 20" march should put the bats in range of anything you may want to charge, but without the pesky problems of intervening terrain.

 

[Dklyn]

With goblins involved, I'd expect to have the wolf hit harder. I'm just shocked to hear that goblins don't self detonate or something.

Not trying to belabor the point, but M10, treat all terrain as open, free reform and can go over units. That's the big difference in mobility If you're trying to reach the back lines, it'll make all the difference.

As for blocking, I guess wolves would work better then bats (simply because neither one do it all that effectively for the point cost)
I would think zombies (especially summoned zombies) would really work much better than either beast for being in the way of enemies (tarpitting as it were). I'd even use skeletons with the movement banner before wolves just because I can uses Nehek to heal more than one wound (wolves are now warbeasts not infantry, thus can only receive one wound from Nehek), so I wouldn't recommend using either wolves or bats to roadblock (at least until it gets FAQ'd to get more wounds ).

I guess I should mentioned that I've also had my fel bats do nothing but die for me, particularly against dwarves. I don't know if you know how an organ gun works, but during the shooting phase, the orgun gun selects one unit and that unit dies no matter how much cover there is and there's nothing you can do about it. Often times bats are selected for this prestigious honor. :swear:

 

[Mikael.K]

Yes, organ guns can be a real pain in the a$$, one of the few things in the game that still auto-hits. Lets get on with the discussion, we got a bit stuck on the wolves vs bats thing. How do competative lists look in the 8th edition? I know people are still trying out different lists and whatnot, but still. Do we still have any no-brainer choices in this edition due to all the nerfs?

 

[WhiteStar]

I have been ranting about this in quite a few threads, but we have an edge when it comes to magic thanks to the gifts. Especially MotBA and forbidden lore come in very handedly right now. With two lords with MotBA and FL - you'll actually have 2D6 + 4 + channeling PD - easily gaining a max of twelve while leaving the opponent stranded at the D6 - whatever it is.

The good thing about this is that we can take out the scroll early, and using Death-lore also the enemy caster (dispeller) leaving us with a pretty much free for all dominating magic phase. I see it as quite viable, but will have to try it out.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

Ahh... This is what I've been waiting for a long time... A challenge for vampires!

I still haven't played with VC in 8th edition (Goblins are sooo good in 8th edition ) but I've been reading some VC tactics and roughly know what to do.

A fighty Vampire Lord is better choice in 8th edition than caster one IMO. Because of random power dice pool it's best to take some Necromancers to do the casting. So a Vampire Lord equipped with close combat items is way to go if you ask my opinion. If we take, say, 2400 points, one Vampire Lord will be enough.

Characters then. Personally I'd go with Necromancers and Wight Kings, but one cheap support Vampire could be good one. One of the Wight's is carrying the battle standard of course, another one is with Sword of Kings and Nightshroud/Gem of Blood. Then Vampire with HoC and some cheap items/powers. Then some Necromancers with VDM and IoN, some of them can carry some items (Dispel Scroll and Channeling Staff maybe?).

Core choices, as we need now 25% of Zombies, Ghouls or Skeletons, I'd go with a mixture of them. A big unit of Ghouls (30 might be good), a bunker of Skeletons (~ 30 too) and then either an unit of Zombies (maybe 20?) or some more Skeletons/Ghouls. An unit of two of dogs might work as good blockers. A doggy-dragon-trap is still here, that's a good thing to remember.

Specials choices are very easy for me. 20-25 Grave Guards with great weapons, full command and BotB. An unit of 6 bats for war machine hunting suits perfectly in my game tactic.

Rares are filled with two Varghulfs. Black Coach might be good, but as it can't suck enemy's power dices anymore it's not THAT good. Wraiths and Blood Knights are still here, too.

So my list would look like this at the end of my discussion.

Vampire Lord
- Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Walking Death
- The Flayed Hauberg, Sword of Quarrel, Dawnstone
= 395 points.

Wight King
- battle standard bearer
- Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield
= 150 points.

Wight King
- Sword of Kings, Gem of Blood/Nightshroud
= 120/125 points.

Necromancer
- Invocation of Nehek, Vanhel's Dance Macabre
- Dispel Scroll
= 95 points.

Necromancer
- Invocation of Nehek, Vanhel's Dance Macabre
- Channeling Staff
= 85 points.

30* Ghouls
- Ghast
= 248 points.

30* Skeletons
- full command
- Warbanner
= 285 points.

20* Zombies
- standard bearer, musician
= 96 points.

7* Dire Wolves
- Doom Wolf
= 66 points.

24* Grave Guards
- full command group, great weapons
- Banner of the Barrows
= 387 points.

6* Fell Bats
= 120 points.

Varghulf
= 175 points.

Varghulf
= 175 points.

There. I didn't get a support Vampire, but I think I'll do fine without her. Tomorrow I'll see how this set works. Please tell me if I've done any big mistakes in my discussion, I'm not a 100% sure about all of these things, but here's roughly what I've been thinking.

 

[Larro]

Giving up on the HoC is the biggest mistake you can make. It was a no brainer in 7th, and more of a no-brainer in 8th due to the increased volume of swings - both attacks WE make, and attacks coming our way!

- Larry

 

[Dklyn]

but as it can't suck enemy's power dices anymore it's not THAT good

Whoa what now? Why wouldn't a BC be able to suck enemy's PD?

As far as your army list goes, I have to say it looks like a solid all around list. Well done!

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

@ Dklyn: Because both Evocation of Death and rolling for power dices are rolled at the start of the magic phase. Our opponent can decide which one to roll first because it's his magic phase. So we are not able to steal enemy's power dices. I know it sucks but that's the way I've heard it's going.

@ Larry: I agree, but I just couldn't find out the way to fit it in this list... Should I drop Lord's Dawnstone? Or is she too vulnerable to enemy's strikes without it?

 

[Artighur]

@ Dklyn: Because both Evocation of Death and rolling for power dices are rolled at the start of the magic phase. Our opponent can decide which one to roll first because it's his magic phase. So we are not able to steal enemy's power dices. I know it sucks but that's the way I've heard it's going.

At this point, I'd just say : "Cool stuff, see you later" and pack my stuff.

 

[Mikael.K]

Hopefully that will get FAQ´d soon enough. OK, getting on to the lists. We could make 2 lists, one with a close combat lord and the other with a caster lord. This kinda decides what the rest of the army will be made out of. So, with a competative list in mind, how would a caster lord and a combat lord look like?

 

[WhiteStar]

@ Dklyn: Because both Evocation of Death and rolling for power dices are rolled at the start of the magic phase. Our opponent can decide which one to roll first because it's his magic phase. So we are not able to steal enemy's power dices. I know it sucks but that's the way I've heard it's going.

At this point, I'd just say : "Cool stuff, see you later" and pack my stuff.

This is for the Finnish tourny scene. In private, friendly games - I'd be surprised if anyone would pull that.

 

[Humaneater]

@ Dklyn: Because both Evocation of Death and rolling for power dices are rolled at the start of the magic phase. Our opponent can decide which one to roll first because it's his magic phase. So we are not able to steal enemy's power dices. I know it sucks but that's the way I've heard it's going.

At this point, I'd just say : "Cool stuff, see you later" and pack my stuff.

This is for the Finnish tourny scene. In private, friendly games - I'd be surprised if anyone would pull that.

I completely agree - if someone tried it in a friendly then I'm probably playing a 9 year old - i.e. it wouldn't happen.

Going back to the competetiveness of VC's:

Varghulf's for me are still amazing if used correctly. First off, always in pairs, and second, never unsupported. I find that combined with a unit of BK's or KoBK's, they make a great Hammer, aswell as opening up the chance for a Refused Flank deployment. Since VC's can't normally stand up to the full force of an opponents army at once, this is more than beneficial.

 

[marshal torrick]

I've been having some fun with this 2250 list for Sacramento, CA's league:

Lord Level 3
Forbidden Lore(death), +2 PD
Helm of Command, Staff of Damnation, 2+AS from vamp book

WK BSB, Banner of Barrows

Hero Vamp
Forbidden Lore(Vamps), Lord of Dead
2+ AS armor of silvered steel or whatever from BRB

30 Spear skells full cmd Banner of Hellfire
20 HW&S Skells full cmd
11 HW&S Skells

20 GG w/GWs full cmd, Banner of Eternal Flame(run 7 wide)
3 Fell Bats
3 Fell Bats
3 Fell Bats

Black Coach
4 Wraiths

Lord goes in bunker that is peeking out behind GG, WK obviously goes with GG, Hero Vamp goes in spear skells.

It's been fun and has gone 2-1 for me so far, once against a dual Hydra list. The bats don't often live past turn 3, but they do either tie up shooting until I get into combat or other things like chariots when charging them in the flank. Death Magic has been very powerful in this army as well.

 

[Mikael.K]

When I get the time I will put together a couple of lists that I think are competative and then I´ll let you guys review them. Lets see if we can come to a consensous.