Complaints of a troubled Vampire

[Swaiper]

I feel like other armies can just 6 dice shit like purple sun and sure they take a misscast but against low initiative armies its always worth it, and he may not take any damage from the misscast at all.

I mean I cant use my main caster (because its my general and if he dies then I die) and that means I cant use a lvl 4 on anything under 2k pts unless I use a naked lord and even then I dont feel I have access to something very destructve... (yes ofcourse I get purple sun too but I dont feel its as good vs armies like elves or WoC). I usually need to use the dice I have for damage control and even if I go magic heavy I wont have alot of (if any) combat characters, which we need to have to help our units get tied or maybe even with close combats.

My main enemies are WoC and HE, the WoC I could mostly handle with TGs or MEs untill he started using every snipe spell in Lore of Death. Both have very poor LD and dies extremely fast. Then theres the Purple sun spamm from both armies that just tears my army to pieces... I just dont seem to have any comeback... and even if I do make it one round theres always the next.. im at a loss on what to do.

MEs seems to be better than TGs here as atleast they have regen vs the snipes. Purple sun just makes it blow up and kill my army though so theres that...
I could go using a BK Deathstar with a lvl 2 vampire with Death but hell have a hard time getting through spells as he is only lvl 2.

Mostly it comes down to who goes first... if I go first I suicide the TGs to take out the Dameon Prince, if he goes first hell snipe one of them down or if he doesnt get enough dice he will just use em all on purple sun... I will also get lucky on the scream to be safe : /.

Against the High Elf I have no idea how to protect myself :S. I tried getting him back with our version of the spell (much weaker though) but he had some dispel scroll that also deleted the spell on a 4+

P.S I also like the way we have to stand near the general to march... its like a purple sun bullseye :S

PP.S I usually like playing a weaker army that you have to work alot with and use redirects and move around the enemy to win but with the snipes on our low ld monsters and purple suns running hrough your army every turn its not even a little fun :S.

 

[Vipoid]

I feel like other armies can just 6 dice shit like purple sun and sure they take a misscast but against low initiative armies its always worth it, and he may not take any damage from the misscast at all.

I know what you mean. 8th edition magic seems built around 6-dicing a powerful spell, and hoping for a miscast. Pity our ~500pt wizard generals have no miscast protection, so can't risk that.

Although, to be honest, I always just end up feeling outgunned in magic.

At the moment, I'm frequently stuck against Lizardmen and/or High Elves.

The Latter have Teclis (who gives +3 power and +3 dispel dice) and a +d3 power dice banner. The fun.

The Lizardmen Slaan that I face can choose one of my wizards each turn, and remove any 6s he rolls on power dice. So, I can't IF a spell even if I want to. Then there's Cupped hands, which has now killed my ghoul king twice (slaan transfers miscast, miscast annihilates SGK's unit, skinks kill exposed ghoul king :'().

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

I would start each game with the mortis engine not in range of your casters (or at least your main one) and the rest of your army. If it dies turn one or two, oh well, that was likely to happen, but not your army isn't hit by the blast and early game unlucky miscasts aren't taking you out. If you have two engines you have a better chance to get one in, then the double miscast result can be used by you to make that purple sun cost him.

There is one bit of help I can offer, don't have a large amount of exp against woc or he

 

[Aren]

Against HE use hexwraiths. Preferably 3 units of 5. Swordmasters can't touch them and he will have to split his magic to get the units, that also diverts his magic from your other units. Use a fast army, use the black periapt to save your dice. Also, use a corpse cart to negate their asf.

 

[The Sun King]

I think alot of this will be remedied when the new HE and LM books come out.

 

[Ether Dude]

Death snipes are low range, as is purple sun (basically 6-30"). Prince stinky is a problem, but since he can only have one ld snipe, it means you've only got one thing to take care to stop. Sure, he can 6-dice it and that's why the ETC has put the 4 dice cap on shadow/death. The other death snipes are unlikely to remove the TG in a single turn.

Still, if you keep the TG 44" away from prince stinky, there are few good targets. Additionally, he needs to come to you, so he'll be in your death snipe range, just as surely as you're in his. Also, he'll probably be in deathshriek range too, so that's not the end of the world.

Sun is a bummer, and it's why I don't think that the crypt horror spam is a great idea. Still, make sure his mages can't get to your flanks and send out vargheists/varghulfs to take them out as fast as you can. Sacrificing 200 points to kill a mage is totally worth it!

 

[The Sun King]

If cast on 10+ Spirit Leech is 24"... I wouldn't call that short range. But I agree in general

 

[Swaiper]

The thing is, the same thing that makes me win against WoC will be sacrificed in order to take care of the Purple Sun caster (Daemon Prince)

Highelves are hard to suicide stuff into. My enemy usually put the mage in his Seaguards but when he sees me charge for his unit hell probably put him in the Swordmasters instead and then im not so confident ill get him even with the suicide Vargs/Varghulf . He will ofcourse try to purple sun first as usual and if he succeeds hell have a ton of more pds and then can start sniping at will with Spirit Leech. And then ofcourse theres the archer unit with flaming attacks (against regen).

 

[gilbo12345]

The thing is, the same thing that makes me win against WoC will be sacrificed in order to take care of the Purple Sun caster (Daemon Prince)

Highelves are hard to suicide stuff into. My enemy usually put the mage in his Seaguards but when he sees me charge for his unit hell probably put him in the Swordmasters instead and then im not so confident ill get him even with the suicide Vargs/Varghulf . He will ofcourse try to purple sun first as usual and if he succeeds hell have a ton of more pds and then can start sniping at will with Spirit Leech. And then ofcourse theres the archer unit with flaming attacks (against regen).

Try the Varg-dart take a champ in the unit and congo-line them into the HE unit. The SM will butcher the champ but wounds from the champ will not be carried over onto the unit meaning you get the now b2b "2nd rank" 4 attacks as well as the 3 supporting from the guy behind him. 7 S5 attacks should do most mages in

 

[Swaiper]

Youre saying that those 11 attacks from the SMs will only kill the first one in the line?? Is this true for say... 5 wide skeletons fighting say.. Spearmen? they can only do a maximum of 5 wounds on the skeletons because only 5 are in base contact? I thought the units in the back stepped up and took blows aswell :S. If this is true, the guys I play with will want to see where it says so in the rules . If this is indeed false, that means that he will usually have 10 blows (hitting on threes with rerolls usually makes him get all 11 hits in but for balancing reasons I used 10) strength 5 on 9 wounds toghness 4 with no save... You are right though it might be worth a shot. I mean I could go safe and use a unit of 4 vargs. Oh and I believe there will be 8 attacks even a stomp too ^^.

Regarding this I aslo have a question. He placed his wizard and his unit 1" behind his Swordmasters to protect himself from the Daemon Prince charge. It says in the BBB that you can not end your move within 1" of another unit. This should mean that a unit that stands 1 inch behind another one can never get charged by flyers? Unless you get them from the side or flank ofcourse (where sadly his wizard will not be). Sure he doesnt have line of sight to much but then again... purple sun and spirit leech doesnt require line of sight...

 

[Vipoid]

Youre saying that those 11 attacks from the SMs will only kill the first one in the line?? Is this true for say... 5 wide skeletons fighting say.. Spearmen? they can only do a maximum of 5 wounds on the skeletons because only 5 are in base contact? I thought the units in the back stepped up and took blows aswell :S. If this is true, the guys I play with will want to see where it says so in the rules . If this is indeed false, that means that he will usually have 10 blows (hitting on threes with rerolls usually makes him get all 11 hits in but for balancing issues I used 10) strength 5 on 9 wounds toghness 4 with no save...

I believe it works with the vargheists because they can only direct attacks against the champion.

 

[Swaiper]

My friends are being bastards and wants to see where in the BBB it says that if you are hitting a unit with only the champion as a viable target the wounds are not carried over onto the unit... : / I would be forever grateful if someone could find it? I looked and coudlnt, youd think it would be on Fight a Round of Close Combat but... nope.

 

[Vipoid]

My friends are being bastards and wants to see where in the BBB it says that if you are hitting a unit with only the champion as a viable target the wounds are not carried over onto the unit... : / I would be forever grateful if someone could find it? I looked and coudlnt, youd think it would be on Fight a Round of Close Combat but... nope.

p93 Under 'Champions in Close Combat'

"Note that extra wounds inflicted on the champion do not carry over to the rest of the unit - once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost."

 

[gilbo12345]

Youre saying that those 11 attacks from the SMs will only kill the first one in the line?? Is this true for say... 5 wide skeletons fighting say.. Spearmen? they can only do a maximum of 5 wounds on the skeletons because only 5 are in base contact? I thought the units in the back stepped up and took blows aswell :S. If this is true, the guys I play with will want to see where it says so in the rules . If this is indeed false, that means that he will usually have 10 blows (hitting on threes with rerolls usually makes him get all 11 hits in but for balancing issues I used 10) strength 5 on 9 wounds toghness 4 with no save...

I believe it works with the vargheists because they can only direct attacks against the champion.

Exactly, champ wounds cannot flow over to the unit. Meaning if the champ is the only thing they can attack then it is the only model that will die. Hence why you need to have them in a conga line.

Forgot about the stomp attacks, just more fuel to the fire lol.

EDIT: Damn wasn't fast enough, damn dinner.

The page about champions pg 93

"Note that any extra wounds inflicted upon a champion do not carry over onto the rest of the unit - once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost"

It also mentions it again, the sentence starting with "In essence"

 

[Swaiper]

My friends are being bastards and wants to see where in the BBB it says that if you are hitting a unit with only the champion as a viable target the wounds are not carried over onto the unit... : / I would be forever grateful if someone could find it? I looked and coudlnt, youd think it would be on Fight a Round of Close Combat but... nope.

p93 Under 'Champions in Close Combat'

"Note that extra wounds inflicted on the champion do not carry over to the rest of the unit - once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost."

Thank you Vipoid youre a life saver!
And thank you Gilbo

Also do you guys know anything about that stuff I wrote higher up? if he stays 1" behind a unit I cant charge the back unit with flyers because I would be standing on the unit in front?

 

[gilbo12345]

My friends are being bastards and wants to see where in the BBB it says that if you are hitting a unit with only the champion as a viable target the wounds are not carried over onto the unit... : / I would be forever grateful if someone could find it? I looked and coudlnt, youd think it would be on Fight a Round of Close Combat but... nope.

p93 Under 'Champions in Close Combat'

"Note that extra wounds inflicted on the champion do not carry over to the rest of the unit - once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost."

Thank you Vipoid youre a life saver!
And thank you Gilbo

No probs, also if your friend challenges then sort out the challenge first and it should be exactly the same (unless it doesn't die) meaning you have only the supporting attacks, but 2 rounds of combat

EDIT: Hiding behind units used to happen way back, when you couldn't target characters if they were alone, within 6' of a friendly unit and not the closest target. There are many different ways to get at him, though you'd need to be creative. Perhaps run some Hex wraiths through since the character is now a separate "unit" and thus will take all the hits himself. Using the Book of Arkan will help as it allows a double-drive-by or allows a drive-by from a longer range.

 

[Swaiper]

So if he challenges the Vargoyle with a SM champion and the Vargoyle dies then the rest of his unit cant strike the rest of my guys but I can strike his? And if the Vargoyle makes it I can hit his mage with 3 attacks from the back? the second one makes sense but the first one is kind of sketchy. it all depends on when the challenge happens. If it happens at the exact same time blows are exchanged that means I only get the supporting attacks to hit the wizard regardless of if my champ lives or dies. Yeah thats how it works isnt it?

 

[gilbo12345]

So if he challenges the Vargoyle with a SM champion and the Vargoyle dies then the rest of his unit cant strike the rest of my guys but I can strike his? And if the Vargoyle makes it I can hit his mage with 3 attacks from the back? the second one makes sense but the first one is kind of sketchy. it all depends on when the challenge happens. If it happens at the exact same time blows are exchanged that means I only get the supporting attacks to hit the wizard regardless of if my champ lives or dies. Yeah thats how it works isnt it?

Yeah if it was with no challenge his attacks will go first (ASF) and all will need to go to the champ, kill the champ the ranks move up to take his place then the two other guys will have one in b2b and the other supporting.


With the challenge, things get a bit tricky and it allows the plan to not work. It would depend if challenges are done separately in their own "initiative bubble" or if they follow the same initiative steps like normal.

If its like normal then it would be similar to above if its at a different time frame to normal, (though I cannot see how, might just be me with old rules like when you had to move the challenge to outside the unit and do it separately lol), then if the champ is killed then the rest of his guys can attack you, (though a SM champ has how many attacks?).

Reading the challenge rules I think it goes in initiative order as per normal with the following restrictions that the models must be touching and they can only direct all their attacks to each other.

EDIT: If he survives the challenge then it means the unit is held up for a turn and the same applies as before. Yes you will get the supporting attacks since the champ (and thus the unit) are in b2b with the enemy normal troopers not just the champ

With the models must be touching he could put his champ on one side with the wizard on the other meaning by issuing a challenge it draws the entire unit of Vargheists over to him, and away from the wizard, (or would he simply move within his unit as that would seem the more logical). But just don't mention this to anyone

 

[Narenzade]

Also Purple Sun doesn't blow up the Engine. It doesn't suffer any wounds. It's simply removed. Mortis Engine reads, "when it suffers its last unsaved wound."

Also, play some spirit hosts. Then he's either getting his units (Chimeras, Warrior Blocks, Swordmasters) locked up or using the magics on them.

 

[Demian]

Basically, if you are going to use that strategy, never issue or accept challenges (champions can fight in them, but they don't have to, unlike characters who will retreat to the back of the unit if they fail to accept a challenge).

It's worth mentioning since anyone will try to use this to get themselves rid of the champion targeting problem.

 

[gilbo12345]

Basically, if you are going to use that strategy, never issue or accept challenges (champions can fight in them, but they don't have to, unlike characters who will retreat to the back of the unit if they fail to accept a challenge).

It's worth mentioning since anyone will try to use this to get themselves rid of the champion targeting problem.

Yes, but wouldn't the champ need to go to the back of the unit thus exposing the unit to the attacks.

The trick is to have the champ between the SM and the rest of your unit as a buffer so having the champ in the back rank spoils this tactic.

 

[Gatti]

Nope. Champions don't have to accept. They can decline without penalty, as a unit champion cannot ever be anywhere in a unit except for the front rank. Only characters are sent back after declining, not the champ.

 

[Swaiper]

Also Purple Sun doesn't blow up the Engine. It doesn't suffer any wounds. It's simply removed. Mortis Engine reads, "when it suffers its last unsaved wound."

Also, play some spirit hosts. Then he's either getting his units (Chimeras, Warrior Blocks, Swordmasters) locked up or using the magics on them.

Doesnt it count as suffering your last wound even if you lose them all at the same time? I think the book should be more clear on this :S. I hope you are correct ofcourse ^^ that would help alot!

 

[gilbo12345]

Nope. Champions don't have to accept. They can decline without penalty, as a unit champion cannot ever be anywhere in a unit except for the front rank. Only characters are sent back after declining, not the champ.

Awesome! Then this tactic is flawless as that was my only concern.

May I ask whereabouts in the BRB does it state that champs can refuse without penalty, would like to know if I ever need to resort to this, and my opponents wants to dispute it, thanks

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

Page 102, under "Refusing A Challenge (Boo! Hiss!)"

"-champions can accept challenges, they do not have to."