Hey. Quick question. There is some talk on this forum about conga lines of 1 rank models. I am a bit confused on the legality of this move as I thought unit command should always be at the front of the unit meaning that if you are conga lining zombies with a musician and banner you can have a minimum of 2 zombies in a rank? Or is it that people play with only a banner that they accomplish this feat? Or is it that I am just plain wrong.
Conga lines?
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Command only takes up the front rank if there is room. This means that a muso would get bumped to the second rank in a congo line
Since you are new to conga lines, I thought I'd throw this in. I, like many, do not like them because I find it silly that a single file line of undead can stop a highly-tuned, elite close combat unit dead in its tracks. So, don't be surprised if you get a dirty look by using them. Others find conga lines as acceptable as any other tactic that is allowed by the rules and they will not bat an eyelash. I think it is best to find out what the local consensus is on the matter and go from there.
Soren said:
In tournament play...anything goes subject to the drumming your opponent will give you as a sportsmanship score.
I guess a conga line limits how many models can fight your zombies and really cuts down on the CR thus making you lose less to crumble.
Seems it would be pretty easy to manuever into the flank.
Also..just about impossible to line up said zombies like that with only a 12 inche deployment. If you started perpendicular to the table edge could you even get 20 zombies so deployed? Horizonal would see your line snake towards the middle of the table and still have over half your unit perpendicular making a weird L shape formation.
If I was a conga line supporter attending a tourney and I knew I was being dinged for a perfectly legal move, I'd talk to the TO. Like, I said, it is perfectly legal. 
The trick is to reform into a conga line when there is only one unit that can charge the conga line in the front. You need to make sure that no mini moves more than 2 x M. Obviously, if you make a conga line that can get flanked, it will not be effective and it would be poor strategy to reform into one.
The trick is to reform into a conga line when there is only one unit that can charge the conga line in the front. You need to make sure that no mini moves more than 2 x M. Obviously, if you make a conga line that can get flanked, it will not be effective and it would be poor strategy to reform into one.
While inside the rules, I think the tactic goes WELL outside the spirit of the game. If one of the players at my gaming group wanted to try it out on me I would first give him (there are no female players) a severe eye roll. If that didn't shame him out of the manuever, I would think to myself, "I hope that was fun, because it's the last time we play".
I don't play in tournies. I don't support the win at all costs.
I challenge you to find, in any historic battle, where the general directed his warriors to line up single file.
All in my opinion of course. Like I said, it is within the rules.
I don't play in tournies. I don't support the win at all costs.
I challenge you to find, in any historic battle, where the general directed his warriors to line up single file.
All in my opinion of course. Like I said, it is within the rules.
maxtoreador
Grave Guard
Dead Rat said:
Single file... no. Reducing the number of your enemies attacks from his strategically superior force by making him fight in a narrow column so that you can optimize the survivability of your own expendable troops till reinforcements can arrive... Battle of Thermopylae.
I used to bunker my necro in a 3-wide unit of skellies with full command. It got some grins, but never any complaints.
Not precisely a conga line, I know, but not far off it.
Not precisely a conga line, I know, but not far off it.
I never understood the idea of Spirit Of the Game. Does that mean we should not bring our A-game because the other guy might just want a silly game? I do not play silly games of warhammer, I play warhammer to get better and help teach others. I am a competitive git with a massive ego and I am VERY proud of it.
Johnny-Crass said:
No, it simply means you should not get stuck on rules and technicalities. I feel there are some things you just don't do as it takes the fun out of the game for the people you are playing and let's face it, the hobby and game is about having fun. It's not like there is any real prestige in winning in warhammer.
Now don't get me wrong I play the game by the rules and am ok with any move as long as it's legal but I would not do stuff like that myself as I think it's boring tactics used by poop players to get ahead.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
Conga-line zombies are perfectly legal. Although remember there is no "snaking" anymore, it would have to stay in a straight line and wheel like normal, making sure the back models of the unit don't move through any other models or "swing" more than 8 inches. So, it's a pretty unwieldy formation.
Now, as a successful tactic: You'd be getting a max CR of 2 (probably 1 with the zombie's lousy stats), and he'd be inflicting up to 6 wounds (7 if his champion is alive or more with a character in the unit). Combined with the static CR of 4, you'd be losing up to 9+ additional zombies to CR per round. If he can combat reform into a horde, that's 3 more attacks.
If he's doing his job in the magic phase, or the WOM dice fail you, he should shut down your invocations, preventing you from recouping the losses. How long is the conga line to start with? (ie: how many rounds would that hold them?)
Maybe tar pitting them for only a few rounds would suffice for the greater strategy, but seems to me that a unit of 15-20 zombies could get blown out in a round whether they were ranked or single file.
On a side note, the Thermopylae reference isn't entirely applicable, as you're not forcing the enemy to reform his larger units into a narrow column to fit through some narrow terrain and up against your elite troops (in game terms, robbing him of his rank bonus because he can't deploy 5 wide).
This is actually the exact opposite of that. There's no logical reason he wouldn't be able to bring the entire weight of his elite unit crushing through and around your narrow line of unranked troops. (So I have to agree that, while a legal tactic, it is sort of silly.)
Now, as a successful tactic: You'd be getting a max CR of 2 (probably 1 with the zombie's lousy stats), and he'd be inflicting up to 6 wounds (7 if his champion is alive or more with a character in the unit). Combined with the static CR of 4, you'd be losing up to 9+ additional zombies to CR per round. If he can combat reform into a horde, that's 3 more attacks.
If he's doing his job in the magic phase, or the WOM dice fail you, he should shut down your invocations, preventing you from recouping the losses. How long is the conga line to start with? (ie: how many rounds would that hold them?)
Maybe tar pitting them for only a few rounds would suffice for the greater strategy, but seems to me that a unit of 15-20 zombies could get blown out in a round whether they were ranked or single file.
On a side note, the Thermopylae reference isn't entirely applicable, as you're not forcing the enemy to reform his larger units into a narrow column to fit through some narrow terrain and up against your elite troops (in game terms, robbing him of his rank bonus because he can't deploy 5 wide).
This is actually the exact opposite of that. There's no logical reason he wouldn't be able to bring the entire weight of his elite unit crushing through and around your narrow line of unranked troops. (So I have to agree that, while a legal tactic, it is sort of silly.)
Johnny-Crass said:
And some people think that beating women is completely acceptable, and don't understand this 'Sufferage' non-sense.
A bit extreme of an example perhaps, but if you don't understand when people said 'Spirit of the game' they are actually using a much longer form of the word 'Fun' then things may be a lost cause. Although I won't disagree that not everyone agree's on what is or is not fun, which is all well and good, not a problem there; It's only a problem when two collide that disagree, and aren't intelligent enough to turn the other cheek, so to speak. Knowing what you want out of a game (A fun story/a tough challenge tactically/gazing on your masterfully painted army/Etc.) vs what your opponent hopes to gain out of the game is just as important a facet of any other social interaction that people seldom seem to recognize, and is quite frankly the basis most problems: Ill Communication and Lack of Understanding.
I myself have fairly stingent 'Acceptability' clauses for when I play any pen and paper (PnP) tabletop RPG, be it D&D or others. But all this means is that I have to understand that there will be players I disagree with, and that I either avoid them, or find a medium that can make us both happy. I hate combat oriented games with no role playing, so I avoid players who think PnP games are 'Old School WoW' and only want 'l33t drops' and to smash hapless monsters with the most broken mechanics they could think to combind from different Splats. To each their own.
That said, I would personally never use the Conga-line based on the difficulty of the manevuer, speaking Meta; It's unweildy to have to move 20+ zombies, one or two at a time to maintain formation and in a clean fashion. Granted I have played Tyranids in 40k, and I still don't own a single actual movement tray for my Vampire Counts (Lol I use note-pad paper half the time) so it's doable, just less fun, and waste time (Aka is further less fun). I would also strictly avoid them against players who think they are cheese, however aginst someone like Jonny-boy here, who is more ok with suffering than sufferage, I would gladly use the lines should they be adventagous. Or I'd just flip the table.
oh you should see peoples give me strange looks when i bring a willy o wisp wall, i feel if you dont give your character magical weapons that is on you. At adepticon i played in the big brawl a 3k list with daemons came up against a all skink and slann list 17 skink drops took me to round 3 to fig on just reforming my blood letter unit into 1 line long ways 44 models across to stop him playing hit and run, surprise him and the game turn. ended up winning it after feeling like i was pushing models.
Ah so by Spirit Of the Game you mean dont be a dick! I got it and can agree somewhat, I agree 100% in pickup games and the like but in a tournament I disagree 100%. I am there to win not make friends. But yah I would never use a congo line in a friendly pick me up game
Infernal Skull said:
I just thought that I should point out that you can in fact swing the line around as much as you'd like. The rules on page 14, BRB, third paragraph under Wheel, says:
So it is perfectly legal to swing the unit around and let the back move across the entire battlefield.
Spirit of the Game I would never do any of this, but I'm a guy who really just tries to have fun while playing, even at tournaments (hey I even brought a goblin with the Wizarding Hat to a tournament). On top of that I tend to make lists that I feel could work logically in the real world. Of curse it is sometimes hard to tell since there are no zombies or elves in the real world, but still, stuff like conga lines are out. I just can't see it ever being a viable tactics in the real world, it just works in the game due to the game mechanics.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
"Spirit of the game" generally means it should be fun for both players. And one should expect to get dinged on sportsmanship in a tournament setting if they use an (arguably) dick tactic to make the game unenjoyable for their opponent. (Please bear in mind, 'unenjoyable' does not simply mean 'I didn't win.')
In casual games, they should just expect to eventually run out of people willing to waste their time playing them. "Oh crap, here comes Billy with his all drop pod Space Marines. Anyone want to deploy, and sit there doing nothing for 5 turns until he deep strikes in, shoots one of your tanks and wins on VP without your army getting to fire a shot?"
Maybe an extreme (and not a terribly accurate) example, but it does illustrate how playing 'within the rules' 'to win,' though fun for little Billy, makes the game unenjoyable for the other player.
I don't think someone trying out a crazy tactic like the conga line would necessarily fall into this category. I love seeing new things tried on the table. But if "finding ways to win by not allowing their opponent to play" becomes a person's go-to strategy, then yeah, see above.
In casual games, they should just expect to eventually run out of people willing to waste their time playing them. "Oh crap, here comes Billy with his all drop pod Space Marines. Anyone want to deploy, and sit there doing nothing for 5 turns until he deep strikes in, shoots one of your tanks and wins on VP without your army getting to fire a shot?"
Maybe an extreme (and not a terribly accurate) example, but it does illustrate how playing 'within the rules' 'to win,' though fun for little Billy, makes the game unenjoyable for the other player.
I don't think someone trying out a crazy tactic like the conga line would necessarily fall into this category. I love seeing new things tried on the table. But if "finding ways to win by not allowing their opponent to play" becomes a person's go-to strategy, then yeah, see above.
Soren said:If I was a conga line supporter attending a tourney and I knew I was being dinged for a perfectly legal move, I'd talk to the TO. Like, I said, it is perfectly legal.
The trick is to reform into a conga line when there is only one unit that can charge the conga line in the front. You need to make sure that no mini moves more than 2 x M. Obviously, if you make a conga line that can get flanked, it will not be effective and it would be poor strategy to reform into one.
2 x M of 4 inches? That means no model can move more than 8 inches on the reform? Please illustrate how you can turn 40 zombies into a conga line. :O
Yorga said:
^ This!
I get how the conga line is useful for limiting attacks. I just wanted to understand the legality if anyone pulled it off against me. It also seems kind of silly to me too. For one taking even the smallest unit size of 20 at 4x5 doesn't it take at least two reforms to get them in one 20-model long conga line? I can't do the maths in my head but to be able to move any of the zombies in the unit as many as 15 zombie bases away would take more than 1 4" move, correct? Seems like a waste of time really.
Yorga said:Soren said:If I was a conga line supporter attending a tourney and I knew I was being dinged for a perfectly legal move, I'd talk to the TO. Like, I said, it is perfectly legal.
The trick is to reform into a conga line when there is only one unit that can charge the conga line in the front. You need to make sure that no mini moves more than 2 x M. Obviously, if you make a conga line that can get flanked, it will not be effective and it would be poor strategy to reform into one.
2 x M of 4 inches? That means no model can move more than 8 inches on the reform? Please illustrate how you can turn 40 zombies into a conga line. :O
Please, illustrate where in my post I said that it was possible to "turn 40 zombies into a conga line."
I didn't. Obviously. I'll leave you with your ruler and minis to determine the unit sizes and formations that are possible to turn into a conga line.