Considering Vampire Counts - Help needed, please

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Alojolo

Zombie
Apr 16, 2014
9
Zombies
9
Hello. I'm a High Elf and Wood Elf player and I'm considering to finish my VC army (finish because I already got some models).

I currently have:

1 Batallion
1 Box of Skeletons
1 Box of Grave Guard
2 Boxes of Crypt Horrors
1 Varghulf
1 Mortis Engine
5 Blood Knights

So, I'm missing a lot of things (core, characters and others), but I don't want to buy without knowing what does actually work and what's considered "meh".

So... I'd like to know if you could please tell me what are some good core choices. And, if possible, things to avoid and things to consider.

I'll highly appreciate that.

Many thanks in advance and best regards.
 
Alojolo said:
So... I'd like to know if you could please tell me what are some good core choices. And, if possible, things to avoid and things to consider.

I'll highly appreciate that.

Many thanks in advance and best regards.

G'day mate. Welcome to the forum. The advice I always give people is to focus on the theme and models they like first, and give consideration to in-game power second. I hate the idea of people playing with models they don't like, or compromising their vision of their super-cool army, just to use the best and most powerful units.

For undead core, you've got pretty much free reign. People take all the core units, and make them all work. I would say some wolves are necessary, as they let you put down a lot of chaff in the deployment phase and they're a very powerful tool, able to redirect enemy units, block enemy movement, hunt enemy warmachines or characters, and are just generally indispensable.

But for the infantry, lots of people take zombies, lots of people take skeletons, and lots of people (but recently less) take ghouls. I think ghouls are coming out of favour a bit due to recently released armies, but they're still a solid choice. So really, just go for whichever you like :)
 
I like ghouls for core as T4 and poison with 2 attacks each is not bad, especially if they are in a horde and have a corpse cart nearby to give asf and possible rerolls :konrad:

Outside of core I would say you want one or even two terrorgheists as they are great. If you want a cool model get a coven throne/mortis engine ;)
 
I would say that vampire counts are probably one of the best armies in terms of intrrnal balance, you can take basically any unit from the book and it'll work fine and dandy-if you want to be hyper competitive there are a few specific builds that people tend to that you can easily find on the forums but otherwise anything goes really.

Some good rules to keep im mind however is that at above 2000 points, skeletons and zombies both need to be 40 strong to be effective and grave guard and ghouls need to have at least 30 (preferably at least 35). Dire wolves are only effective (in my mind) in units of 5 or 15 and you'll want at least 10 black knights or at least 5 blood knights or wraiths crypt horrors and vargheists, 5. For every 500 points deviation from 2000 you can reduce/increase the number of infantry by 5 a unit safely, the black knights by 2 and the blood knights/wraiths by 1, crypt horrors/vargheists 1. As for when units get too big generally, infantry 50 models, blood knights/wraiths 7, black knights 14, cryot horrors 12.


As for proportions, i would say you want to be spending bwtween 25%and 33% of your total points on characters and as little as possible on core most of the time.

In gneral it doesn't really matter what single targets you take (other than you probably don't want 2 corpse carts below 2000 and you are very unlikely to want 3 ever.

Its a bit of math but if you stay within these ranges your army should be quite functional and it allows a lot of freedom in how you build your army
 
As others have said our book has great internal ballance, and there aren't many units that aren't worth it. Some quick thoughts on some units since you ask:

Core:

Dire Wolves: Vital part of any list most make up. VC have the best chaff in the game probably, and it starts with the wolves. Vanguarding action, these guys are great chaff/redirectors, or even warmachine hunters if taken big enough.

Zombies: Great tarpits, easily raised up. You probably want a unit of 20 to act as bunker for your necro (and you'll need extras to that for those that will be raised). Many lists will also have 1-2 blocks of 40-50 more (and again be raised beyond that) to get into the enemy and lock them down. The only trick here, is don't ever combo charge with them, and don't let any elite unit get locked into a combat including them. Zombies die by the droves, and the combat res will cause you to lose your other units.

Skeletons: Sligtly more survivable than zombies, slightly more damage output, but play a similar role most of the time. In smaller point games you could put a vamp in here and use them as a delivery system, but probably not the ideal place for your characters.

Ghouls: No defense, but great offense. 2 attacks each, with poison attacks. Try and get off van hels on them for re-rolls to hit, and they are our one core choice that actually has a chance to kill somehting. They are slightly overcosted to me, but can be fun to use.

Special:
Grave Guard: If you are going to go with an infantry army, this is probably where you want to stick your main characters. Add in the banner of barrows for +1 to hit, realize that they have killing blow, and watch them go to work. Most players see the optimal build as great weapons for the streangth bonus to wound.

Spirit Host: Another great chaff piece. Can only be hit by spells or magic weapons (can die to static combat res though), and thus can do a great job holding up even elite enemy units. Big nasty charriot? You can hold it infinately, at least until or unless you are combo charged. Steam tank? It's stick in combat with this guy, and not going anywhere. One of the best things in our list for it's use, I never leave home without at least 2.

Black Knights: If you want a more mobile vamp lord delivery system, this is the best way to go. The Black Knight Bus is the core of a great many list builds.

Hexwraiths: I sometimes have a hard time finding points for these guys, but they have some unique abilities that make them a very fun addition to many lists.

Crypt Horrors: Our only true anvil unit, they are really a great option. I notice you have a mortis engine, keep that nearby to get the bonus to the regen, and keep a necro nearby if possible to raise them back up.

Rare:
Terrorgheists: You want at least one of these guys. One of the best pieces in our book, it is also our best answer to heavy armor options. One thing we lack at times is a way to deal with some big heavies - watch this guy scream them off the board with ease. Mine has single handedly won me games plenty of times.

Blood Knights: Because I noticed you have them. I have a small unit myself, and I love the models and the fluff. They are not an optimal choice for us right now though. They are really badly overcosted. If they get in against something they can do real damage, but at that cost, and to only have 1 wound ... they can get deleted too easily, and with frenzy they can get chaffed out of position as well.



Ok, so it wasn't an exhaustive list, but hopefully gives you some insight to our core and a few other key units.
 
To continue countulrich's unit discussion, there is an exhaustive one in one of the stickied threads in this forum, but below are the characters (special than normal)

Vlad von Carstein:o_o A decent allrounder with am bonus to The Hunger, and a one off come alive again on 2+ if eh fails Heavy Armour and a 4+ Ward, and three Lore of the Vampires Wizard Levels. Despite this, his all-rounder abilities mean he is outshone by other characters in their areas of expertise, and therefore not always worth it. A good character, however, and fits into a 2000 point battle unlike the other Vampire Lord character. Also the von Carstein characters have fluff potential against Empire. Also the only reason you would ever take...

His wife, Isabella von Carstein (although you still probably wouldn't take her)::thumbsdown: Hero Vampire, but her only real ability seems to be keeping Vlad alive (one Vampire in unit can geta WOund back from her magic Blood Chalice, which had better be Vlad, or your wasting her) and fighting (both get ASF if in the same combat). And she can be sacrificed to make him better (if one goes six feet under the other gets Frenzy/Hatred, nice abilities which LD 10 should ensure Frenzy's penalty doesn't apply). if Vlad dies, and returns, the rule presumably doesn't apply until he dies a second time. And if he does die, she's hopeless. Average Vampire profile (n fact, none of the vampire characters have stat bonuses), Level 1 Vampires, no Ward or amazing weapon. Works nice with Vlad, but otherwise don't take.

Mannfred von Carstein: :thumbsup: Vlad's get. although more powerful than his sire for some reason. Good character. powerful casting (Level 4 Loremaster Vampires and Death) and reasonable combat abilities (Magic weapon that turns unsaved WOunds into dice for Mannfred to use next Magic Phase) and extra Wounds (Armoru of Templehoth gives +2 Wounds and 5+ Armour). With Vampire Lord stats, magic weapon, loads of power dice, all seven Lore of Vampire spells for Curse of Undeath, The Hunger, 5 Wounds, shouldn't die. Best caster in the book, and decent combat to back it up. Needs 2500 points to play, but great if he can.

Konrad von Carstein: Situational grading. Usually o_o, sometimes :thumbsup:. Vlad should never have sired this nutter, so insane his madness is in his rules, but anyway...Loads of Attacks, with Multiple Wounds 2 and Frenzy (or Stupidity, at LD7...do the math). Unreliable, and vulnerable, but fun if he hits multi Wound units or models.

Heinrich Kemmler:o_o Character Master Necromancer. Raising Skeletons above starting size is neat, although no one else in the army can if he's there (it's in the Master of the Dead rule to stop spamming, and give Zombies a place), Ethereal or Fly (but when will he need to Fly?). Ethereal Necromancer! Quite good. But then, if he needs the immune to mundane weapons protection granted by Ethereal...Wait a minute, that's because he has Magic weapon restoring Wounds to his unit of Skeletons/Grave Guards (and +@ Attacks, as he only has 1). Don't let someone take his cloak, or he's dead. Level 4 Loremaster Vampires. Relatively cheap, but that's because, in my opinion, he's average.

Krell, Champion of the Dead: o_o, to:thumbsdown:: Kemmler's servant (he thinks) and character Wight King. Great model. Killing Blow (Heroic in Kemmler's unit) and magic Great Weapon that wounds as the game goes on. Corpse Cart can bring him back to his I5 so he gets to use his fancy axe, and his 4+ Armour is so rusted it emits a magic aura that turns Magic Weapons he saved a Wound against mundane immediately, cancelling all their abilities (although 4+, with Armour Save modification, probably won't mean anything against the Magic weapons it's useful against). Take for something of a gimmick can work.

Vampire Lord::thumbsup: General Lord. Great profile (except an irritating lack of protection beyond T5) and lots of options, with Vampiric powers. Red Fury/Quickblood usually taken, but for more variety6 try Flying Horror (Flying Vampire? great. On the other hand, he'll likely be your General, so watch out) Master fo Dark Arts to for extra magic dice, a psychological power, or Summon Creatures for extra Bats/Wolves. Protect at all costs if General. Vamps, Death or Shadow. His fighting style likely won't support Shadow, so try Vampires or Death (I'd do Vampires)

Master Necromancer::thumbsup: Caster. vampires or Death. Do Vampires, with some magic boosting kit.

Vampire/Necromancer: Hero versions of above. Cheaper and weaker. Vampire cannot balance attack and defense, and Necromancer not as powerful casting. Spend points more wisely. On the other hand, extra casting/chopping.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Forgot the Strigoi Ghoul King and Wight King.

Strigoi Ghoul King: o_o Despite the fluff, no stronger than regular Vampire Lords, although they can Regenerate (5+). But even without Flaming that's not very good. The Fireproof (whatever it's called) gem gives insurance against Flame, but takes up points and slots for more important things. Ironically, All Vampires and their character version (except Konrad, who had to threaten and bribe Necromancers to keep his army going) have Magic Levels and are allowed magic armour. The Ghoul King has Magic, too, but can't wear magic armour. But the others can? "shrug". That means it is vulnerable in conflict, which is where it should be, or flying alone (it can work, it seems, but I can't see how) It can take Powwers, but a limited amount. If you like them, they can work, but I wouldn't touch them.

Wight King::thumbsup:. Hero. Can be BSB, which, despite what everyone else tells you, I think is useful. I'll discuss Vampire BSBs below, but the Wight King is more suitable than the Vampire hero (who can also be BSB as he is cheaper, and the -1 to Crumble is wasted if the Vampire is doing what he's supposed to be doing. Average profile,3 Attacks, Killing Blow, but average WS. He is mainly defensive, and can take Challenges for other characters (a Champion could, but the Wight King is more survivable and has a chance of doing something back). Good with Nightshroud, making enemies in BtB with him ASL improving his chances, making for a nasty surprise in a Challenge and a boost to a combat character next to him. Can take magic items to be more survivable. I'd recommend Talisman of Endurance. Okay, 5++, like on Stirgoi, but here it's backing an Armour Save up, and he's designed for survivability. Just make sure you get a Lord-level character in the army as well, as with hero levels he'd be General, which without Wizard Levels would be illegal (although I always read it that your general was the highest LD Wizard in the army, best to be safe).

Vampire BsB: Despite what everyone tries to tell you, :thumbsup:. Best as Wightv King, as he is cheaper, and -1 Crumble won't matter if your Vampire is doing what he's meant to be doing. It improves the long-term resilience of your unit, which Wight Kings are meant to do. One Wound may not seem that helpful, but it means one more Wound to take down next time, and may save the BsB himself, buying a turn to send something to save it. It can keep a character going, and prolong a grind. As for the often-ignored LD re-roll, if your General is a fighter, the units he'll be allowing to March will probably be within 8 inches of the enemy, requiring a LD to March, and will protect against weapons that cause Wounds by forcing LD tests. Also allows Magic banner that can switch through units (if you do have a Vampire BsB, use Shadow as his Lore, so he can switch h around units to share the Banner's abilities. try Banner of Endless rage so you can port Frenzy around (re-rollable LD7 should control it). Talking of Frenzy, if you take Konrad, the BsB can try to keep him on track, re-rolling his tests. So, all up, worth it in my opinion.
 
This turned into a fantastic thread. Great help for all new players, myself included. Should be stickied. Parts of it anyway.
 
Well that was really great feedback. Many thanks and I'll keep you informed with how does my army expand.
 
Ok... So, I no longer have the above mentioned models (I was supposed to have them soon because of a deal, but the deal was cancelled).

Therefore, I'm considering buying Mantic models for my army, and I would like to know what you thought about that.

My main idea was getting two boxes of the Undead Army Set: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/undead-army-set-110-figures.html

And 12 Werewolfes to use as Crypt Ghouls, these models are awesome in my opinion: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war/undead/product/undead-werewolves-3-figures.html

That way, I'd have 80 Skeletons, 60 Zombies (I want 80, could buy another box), 40 Ghouls (I'm not thinking about using Ghouls, so I could actually use them as "more" Zombies until I get the other Zombie box) and 40 Revenants that could be my Grave Guard. Then, 12 Werewolfes for my Crypt Horrors (I could swap their heads for Ogre zombie-like heads or so).

Would this be a good start?
 
Count Vashra said:
Also allows Magic banner that can switch through units (if you do have a Vampire BsB, use Shadow as his Lore, so he can switch h around units to share the Banner's abilities. try Banner of Endless rage so you can port Frenzy around (re-rollable LD7 should control it).

What banner is that? I can't find it and it feels like I'm missing something.

Also, I'd like to add one more unit.

Corps Cart: IMO a good unit. It gives all units within 6" ASF if it gets targeted by a spell. This can make many of you buff spells, especially those that you bubble, much more dangerous. Biggest drawback is its movement, with only M4 and no marching option it always gets behind the rest of your army. Bringing a Book of Arkham is a good way to solve it, allowing it to move another 8" in the magic phase if you are lucky. Also remember that the ASF bubble will activate when that happens. Works best in an infantry based army, so that it can keep up, and remember that Crypt Ghouls and Grave Guards with hand weapons & shields can make great use of the ASF due to their relatively high initiative. The ASF is also a great way to counter elf armies. For the upgrades I think both are good, I run a IoN dependant army so the Loadstone is very nice for me, but the Balefire is a great way to hamper your opponent's magic phase, 24" covers a really large area.
 

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