Crumble, pro or con and dealing with it tactically

[Archamedius]

So I was thinking about the whole stigma associated with combo charges and undead core units, and I am curious. I get that combo charging a small elite unit in the flank isn't necessarily a good idea, but what is wrong with combo charging another rank and file unit in the flank? For instance, force your opponent to charge a unit of skeletons and then charge it in the flank on the following turn with a unit of zombies. The zombies will take reduced attacks since it is flanking (single rank attacking) and will disrupt (thanks to their large size and flank positioning) removing rank bonus from the enemy. The skeletons with their parry save have slightly better resilience soaking more damage. Even with the paltry damage, against elite troops with low volume of attacks (longbeards, executioners, white lions, even hammerers perhaps) the removal of rank bonus plus charge and flank would be a full 5 combat res swing in your favor. With the low volume of attacks that those units put out, wouldn't that swing justify the charge. I did some preliminary math hammer on it (using longbeards with great weapons as an example), and it seemed to swing the combat to where you were only losing by 1 or 2 instead of 6 or 7. That is huge, especially when you consider 30 skeletons and 40 zombies comes in around 100 points under the cost of 30 longbeards or similar troops.

What am I missing in this?

 

[TheTrans]

They'll put all there attacks into the zombies, your skellies will kill bugger all...poof..one turn you loose say 25 zombies after crumble and bang, 10 skeletons go up in smoke due to people killing the zombies..

Yeah the only crumble on wounds taken would be a bit more fair, but that telies on the re-writing of the rule within the rulebook.

Also @najo about running vamps, I don't see it as that bad given it will normally be running out of a multicharge. Makes sort of more fluff sense...vamps knoghts charging, breaking off and chargin agaij into an enemy line while the zombies shackle them in place

 

[Archamedius]

They'll put all there attacks into the zombies, your skellies will kill bugger all...poof..one turn you loose say 25 zombies after crumble and bang, 10 skeletons go up in smoke due to people killing the zombies..

Yeah the only crumble on wounds taken would be a bit more fair, but that telies on the re-writing of the rule within the rulebook.

Also @najo about running vamps, I don't see it as that bad given it will normally be running out of a multicharge. Makes sort of more fluff sense...vamps knoghts charging, breaking off and chargin agaij into an enemy line while the zombies shackle them in place

Maybe you missed the part about the zombies being in a flank charge. 5-6 models in base, and unless I have been playing warhammer wrong the past year, no supporting attacks to the flank. So with 6 attacks, 4 hit, 3 wound.....how does that result in 10 dead skeletons?

 

[TheTrans]

Combo charging with cheap units is fine mate. Losing by 1-5 is really a won combat if only using core for VC, where that 5 is an issue is if you've hot the c9mbat with something remotely good and they crumble 5 models also. What people have issues with is not really being able to hammer and anvil stuff. Also I imagine there was a lot of room on a flank to swing a zombie bus into the enemy?

 

[Archamedius]

Combo charging with cheap units is fine mate. Losing by 1-5 is really a won combat if only using core for VC, where that 5 is an issue is if you've hot the c9mbat with something remotely good and they crumble 5 models also. What people have issues with is not really being able to hammer and anvil stuff. Also I imagine there was a lot of room on a flank to swing a zombie bus into the enemy?

It was a hypothetical situation which seems fairly easy to setup, especially since most people do not respect zombies in the flank.

 

[najo]

With raise dead and all our other redirecting, those situations come up nearly every game. I just got done playing a game today where I used raise dead every turn and kept reforming my ghouls and skeletons to get into advantageous positions. It was messy to say the least.

Ironically, I lost tonight, because of crumble lol! That hasn't happened in a while, but I was thinking about you guys and this thread. He took out my mortis engine turn one, we tore into each other, and I took out the nurgle DP, but the movement got really complex and the combats and charges just got out of hand. One of my hexwraiths got caught in a bad shoot and bam, one bad overrun broke my line. Lol. Then slowly the dominos fell.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Ive had a game againat darkelves.
In very short: i had over half of his points dead and the biggest threats were gone. i still had pretty much everything.
Then my moris engine got blown away in turn 5.
What ensued was really rhe worst i ever experienced. my general got killed by ME blast which then crumbled so much that the game ended in a draw.....

Now even tho that fluffwise it makes sense.
The punishment for losing your general is far too harsh. especially compared to all other armies that have no penalty at all. like the general is basically a normal unit easily replaced.

 

[najo]

Ive had a game againat darkelves.
In very short: i had over half of his points dead and the biggest threats were gone. i still had pretty much everything.
Then my moris engine got blown away in turn 5.
What ensued was really rhe worst i ever experienced. my general got killed by ME blast which then crumbled so much that the game ended in a draw.....

Now even tho that fluffwise it makes sense.
The punishment for losing your general is far too harsh. especially compared to all other armies that have no penalty at all. like the general is basically a normal unit easily replaced.

Where was your general at that he got hit by the blast? In or outside a unit?

 

[Skittelz1981]

He was sitting on a TG, rolled 9 hits and randomized got 7 on me of which 4 woumded and 3 got through. Byebye general

 

[najo]

Ouch, that's a bummer. Sorry man. What did he have protection?

 

[Skittelz1981]

Regular 4++ and flaming protection.

I just got unlucky with the amount of hits and then the amount of randomized on the lord and then failed so many wardsaves.

but in that single blast i lost 1.2k points due to crumble. coz after the general, 1 more tg. vargheists, the tg-mount a banshee locking a hydra and a spirit host all vanished.

 

[najo]

Double ouch!!

 

[shaun macey]

I wouldn't out right get rid of crumbling I would change it so that your units would crumble by the combat resolution which exceeds your units Ld so if you lost combat by 5 then your Ld 2 zombies would take 3 wounds and if you lost combat by 5 again but with vargheists would still be fine. This makes the whole idea of crumbling to me make more sense as units of zombies require little magic to bring back to unlife but will die just as easily where as units of black knights and grave guard have obviously taken some casting to get them to fight for you, It would also work with vampiric units as there high Ld shows they are magical creatures and rely on it a lot less to sustain them.

 

[TheTrans]

Alas would become unfair with the ld10 bubble from the lord.

 

[shaun macey]

I forgot to mention I would make them take it on their own modifiable Ld

 

[TheTrans]

Alas so again we don't really get to benefit from all the other 'passive' buffs that other armies get from their generals and BSBs...

 

[Blackearth]

Started my army back in the early 90s. I love the crumble rule , very powerful when used right. Knowing the enemy is key, we should all know 40 zombies won't last a turn against khorned up warriors with ahw (though we can easily redirect them) but against white lions with BOTWD we can laugh as there expensive unit gets stuck for at least 3 runs without magic support. I for one don't leave home without 3/4 guys who can cast Inovocation.
Movment to massive and we are one of the best army's at controlling it, easy assess to spells/book of arhan.

 

[Nicreap]

I can understand where najo Congress from with the crumble makes things fair in a VC army. You have vampires which can actually mulch stuff. I come from the tomb king side where such a character doesn't exist, and we have a handful of units that can kill things and crumble sucks. Our "killy"units basically have to charge things alone, because god forbid you try and break steadfast with any kind of infantry, because you will lose your heavy hitter, not to mention or healing sucks to and some of our killiest things are constructs who get 1 wound back, so basically can't be healed are unlikely to break steadfast and will crumble if you put them into a fight with a unit that could break steadfast. Looking at tomb kings only crumble needs to be reworked, with UL and the ability to have blender lords and decent healing it may be more of a reasonable rule.

 

[najo]

I've been playing warhammer since 3rd edition. Crumble has essentially remained the same during this entire time. I played undead when it was one army, then stayed with both vampires and tomb kings at the split and have played both armies up till 8th. What makes TKs 8th so sub par isn't just lack of blenders, because vampire armies play fine without our vampires.

Tomb kings main issue is the marching and constructs healing (fixed in undead legions) and overall the lore of nehekhara. The lore attribute heals poorly, the signature spell can't cast into combat, the effects are hit and miss on some spells (like dessication's buff version rolls a 1 and it does nothing different from unbuffed version. Most spells need their cost reduced, the signature needs a in combat boost (always strikes first is good) and the lore attribute should be d3+level/level/or 1 depending on what type of unit is gaining its effects.

The other problem is lack of damage absorption in the ushtabi, knights and stalkers. Those constructs are T4 even though they are made of stone. The ushtabi at least should be T5. All constructs should have a special rule that their armor saves aren't reduced below 5+. That would give them a fluffy way to resist damage and put some anvils in their army.

EBtS needs to be on turn one they can place and pop up. It would make it more reliable and effective to have to opponents worry about it from turn one.

Finally, the only real teeth in the army is killing blow. It's in the spells, it's all over the units. The main issue though it's useless against half the units in the game. I think killing blow should ignore armor saves on all models when it triggers. That allows it to retain value. Round out khemrian spears and arrows to have armor penetration -1 and tomb kings gain some traction against armored units.

The curse needs some more punch to make mummys scarier and the magic items could use some reworking. If I was doing the tomb kings, I would create secrets of the mourtuary cult for the Liche Priests to take too, giving them ways to manipulate their magic like lizardmen slaan, but remain focused on themes of the lores of nehekhara, death and light. Like vampire powers for the vampires, but secrets of the mourtary cult guarded by the liches and give them things like recasting, miscast protection, boosted healing, extra effects on their maguc missiles, direct damage and hexes, choosing a spell, mixing spells from the lores together, healing units nearby when casting, gain regeneration and grant reg 6+ to unit you join etc.

Any way, TK lacks these extra touches that vampire counts has. That's why they have such a uphill battle.

 

[Nicreap]

I don't disagree with your entire assessment, but if crumble didn't brutalize the ability to perform joint combats it wouldn't be so bad. If I could throw ushabti and a block of skeletons into a combat, knowing that the ushabti may take damage but not just pop, it would open up a whole range of options. As it is large blocks of skeletons can tar pit or grind if you stay putting characters in, but you are still just buffing crap units.

Even if constructs took a test like demons ignoring the results for 2 and 12, it would make a big difference in how the army could be played.


The construct healing is better in undead legions, keeping a war sphinx alive isn't a problem, but things like ushabti and necropolis knights still won't see much benefit without spamming invo. And undead legions kills the only way to heal uahabti up to 8 wounds for power level 5. Banner of the undying legion, since the rules for resurrection, and not the nehekhara lore attribute now impose the limit. I had great fun at a tournament with 10 ushabti and botul.... Except I couldn't march so unless the opponent moved forward I couldn't use them before turn 4or5

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I've been playing warhammer since 3rd edition. Crumble has essentially remained the same during this entire time. I played undead when it was one army, then stayed with both vampires and tomb kings at the split and have played both armies up till 8th. What makes TKs 8th so sub par isn't just lack of blenders, because vampire armies play fine without our vampires.
[...]
Any way, TK lacks these extra touches that vampire counts has. That's why they have such a uphill battle.

I'd say one of the biggest problems with TK is that they're built to be the "construct army," but nothing in the army actually synergizes well at all with constructs. You can't heal them well, and the buffs don't really help them either. Light magic doesn't help greatshabti since they're ASL. Bowshabti don't hit often enough to be worth their points.

Moreover the "synergy pieces" like tomb princes and necrotects are too expensive for what they do, and too fragile. You basically need one in every infantry unit to make them viable, and that adds up really, really quickly.

In a 20-0 system we also don't have the damage capability to really 20 people, nor the speed to press the advantage if we have them on the run. In WLD people just run circles around us.

All in all it's a really frustrating army to play. You only have a hope if your opponent doesn't know what he's doing against you, as a result of lack of experience playing TK. But that can only help you go so far.

Not to mention that our army basically stops at S5. Or, at least everything good in the army does. Rather frustrating.


I agree with Najo that having construct armour saves be unmodifiable would be a really cool and fluffy solution for them. I've actually championed that quite a lot on the TK boards (for what little good it does).

Our spell lore could also use some more flexibility, and more importantly more buffs. I really liked the idea of nurgle-style "dual use" spells, that are either hexes if cast on your opponent or buffs if on your own unit. Something like Dessication being +1S/T if cast on yourself, or -1S/T if cast on your opponent. Desert Winds could be standard if cast on yourself, or Vengeance if cast on the other side. That sort of thing.

Skullstorm just needs a complete rework. That spell is awful. Would love if it was Return to the Golden Age or whatever from the Storm of Magic spells. Armywide healing and extra S/WS would be wicked.

 

[najo]

I'd say one of the biggest problems with TK is that they're built to be the "construct army," but nothing in the army actually synergizes well at all with constructs. You can't heal them well, and the buffs don't really help them either. Light magic doesn't help greatshabti since they're ASL. Bowshabti don't hit often enough to be worth their points.

Moreover the "synergy pieces" like tomb princes and necrotects are too expensive for what they do, and too fragile. You basically need one in every infantry unit to make them viable, and that adds up really, really quickly.

In a 20-0 system we also don't have the damage capability to really 20 people, nor the speed to press the advantage if we have them on the run. In WLD people just run circles around us.

All in all it's a really frustrating army to play. You only have a hope if your opponent doesn't know what he's doing against you, as a result of lack of experience playing TK. But that can only help you go so far.

Not to mention that our army basically stops at S5. Or, at least everything good in the army does. Rather frustrating.


I agree with Najo that having construct armour saves be unmodifiable would be a really cool and fluffy solution for them. I've actually championed that quite a lot on the TK boards (for what little good it does).

Our spell lore could also use some more flexibility, and more importantly more buffs. I really liked the idea of nurgle-style "dual use" spells, that are either hexes if cast on your opponent or buffs if on your own unit. Something like Dessication being +1S/T if cast on yourself, or -1S/T if cast on your opponent. Desert Winds could be standard if cast on yourself, or Vengeance if cast on the other side. That sort of thing.

Skullstorm just needs a complete rework. That spell is awful. Would love if it was Return to the Golden Age or whatever from the Storm of Magic spells. Armywide healing and extra S/WS would be wicked.

Dual augment/hex spells like nurgle would be amazing! I would love to see that.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Also having 'My Will Be Done' be bubbled. Tomb Princes might actually be worthwhile if the effect was within 6". You might actually put a prince on a sphinx if that was the case (especially if his MWBD actually affected the mount...ridiculous that it doesn't. As if WS4 thundercrush attacks were THAT overpowered...).

Would also like to see more HKB in the army. One attack on the necro and the ridiculously overcosted Destroyer of Eternities.


Not to mention that literally everything in our army is overcosted save the Casket.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Dual augment/hex spells like nurgle would be amazing! I would love to see that.

Yeah. I thought of that after playing Khatep for a while. He actually makes the lore playable.

If your hierophant had Loremaster (Nehekhara) the lore would be alright. It's the fact that you're choosing between damage capabilities and buffing capabilities that makes it so difficult. Plus the fact that Desert Winds is a dead spell halfway through the game, as is Vengeance.

 

[najo]

I don't disagree with your entire assessment, but if crumble didn't brutalize the ability to perform joint combats it wouldn't be so bad. If I could throw ushabti and a block of skeletons into a combat, knowing that the ushabti may take damage but not just pop, it would open up a whole range of options. As it is large blocks of skeletons can tar pit or grind if you stay putting characters in, but you are still just buffing crap units.

Even if constructs took a test like demons ignoring the results for 2 and 12, it would make a big difference in how the army could be played.


The construct healing is better in undead legions, keeping a war sphinx alive isn't a problem, but things like ushabti and necropolis knights still won't see much benefit without spamming invo. And undead legions kills the only way to heal uahabti up to 8 wounds for power level 5. Banner of the undying legion, since the rules for resurrection, and not the nehekhara lore attribute now impose the limit. I had great fun at a tournament with 10 ushabti and botul.... Except I couldn't march so unless the opponent moved forward I couldn't use them before turn 4or5

This is a vampire counts issue too though, you stick any of our "elite" units in with our tar pits and you have dead elites. Combing charging is risky and has to be done carefully. TK can stick a royal in their units and viola WS5 or 6 skeletons and extra attrition protection. You just have to come at combo charging a bit outside of the box. Proper flanks, hammer units and BSB in the right place and minimize the damage the tar pit takes, and you should be fine.