Curse of Anraheir Update

[LordTobiothan]

Okkan Mindrazor does not change or remove or whatever anything. It only makes you use L instead of S for wounding rolls. So what do you have to roll for wounds if affected by this spell? Leadership.

Curse of Anrahein does not change or remove or whatever anything. It only makes you treat treat any terrain (but impassable) as dangerous. So how do you treat any terrain but impassable if affected by this spell? As dangerous.

There´s a lot of examples but it´s quite obvious no matter the amount of clear examples provided because you are in a kingside castling.

You say it doesn't change it, but the spell clearly states you use something instead of something else. That is the definition of changing it.

Curse of Anrahein does not have this wording. It simply makes terrain also dangerous terrain. You still haven't addressed that using your line of thought you can use the spell to deny opponents beneficial terrain pieces, which clearly isn't in the spell. One casting of this and that wood those wood elves are standing in is just dangerous terrain, bye bye bonuses.

 

[Olethros70]

What´s the name of the monstruous infantry used by orcs and goblins, and by Caos either? It has regeneration 4+. Cannot remember the name right now...

 

[RarerMonsters]

Okkan Mindrazor does not change or remove or whatever anything. It only makes you use L instead of S for wounding rolls. So what do you have to roll for wounds if affected by this spell? Leadership.

Curse of Anrahein does not change or remove or whatever anything. It only makes you treat treat any terrain (but impassable) as dangerous. So how do you treat any terrain but impassable if affected by this spell? As dangerous.

There´s a lot of examples but it´s quite obvious no matter the amount of clear examples provided because you are in a kingside castling.

You say it doesn't change it, but the spell clearly states you use something instead of something else. That is the definition of changing it.

Curse of Anrahein does not have this wording. It simply makes terrain also dangerous terrain. You still haven't addressed that using your line of thought you can use the spell to deny opponents beneficial terrain pieces, which clearly isn't in the spell. One casting of this and that wood those wood elves are standing in is just dangerous terrain, bye bye bonuses.

No, because Dangerous Terrain is a descriptor of terrain, not a full classification like "Abyssal Wood" or "Open Ground"

Because those things can ALSO be Dangerous Terrain, Curse of Anraheir
doesn't override them by default because they don't need to.

This would be like arguing that casting Curse of Anraheir on a unit in a building de-garrisons them because they no longer treat the building as a building. Or that casting it on a unit in a River restores its rank bonus. Or that a unit could walk through impassable terrain as long as it takes a DT test.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Okkan Mindrazor does not change or remove or whatever anything. It only makes you use L instead of S for wounding rolls. So what do you have to roll for wounds if affected by this spell? Leadership.

Curse of Anrahein does not change or remove or whatever anything. It only makes you treat treat any terrain (but impassable) as dangerous. So how do you treat any terrain but impassable if affected by this spell? As dangerous.

There´s a lot of examples but it´s quite obvious no matter the amount of clear examples provided because you are in a kingside castling.

You say it doesn't change it, but the spell clearly states you use something instead of something else. That is the definition of changing it.

Curse of Anrahein does not have this wording. It simply makes terrain also dangerous terrain. You still haven't addressed that using your line of thought you can use the spell to deny opponents beneficial terrain pieces, which clearly isn't in the spell. One casting of this and that wood those wood elves are standing in is just dangerous terrain, bye bye bonuses.

No, because Dangerous Terrain is a descriptor of terrain, not a full classification like "Abyssal Wood" or "Open Ground"

Because those things can ALSO be Dangerous Terrain, Curse of Anraheir
doesn't override them by default because they don't need to.

This would be like arguing that casting Curse of Anraheir on a unit in a building de-garrisons them because they no longer treat the building as a building. Or that casting it on a unit in a River restores its rank bonus. Or that a unit could walk through impassable terrain as long as it takes a DT test.

You realize you're agreeing with me right? I'm trying to argue it doesn't overwrite the current terrain, anyone saying it works on open ground is arguing it does overwrite current terrain.

 

[RarerMonsters]

You realize you're agreeing with me right? I'm trying to argue it doesn't overwrite the current terrain, anyone saying it works on open ground is arguing it does overwrite current terrain.

No, I am saying that it overwrites current terrain by appending a detail but does not change that's terrain overall classification.

If you can make a forest ALSO DT then you can make Open Ground also DT.

 

[LordTobiothan]

You realize you're agreeing with me right? I'm trying to argue it doesn't overwrite the current terrain, anyone saying it works on open ground is arguing it does overwrite current terrain.

No, I am saying that it overwrites current terrain by appending a detail but does not change that's terrain overall classification.

If you can make a forest ALSO DT then you can make Open Ground also DT.

so you apply all the rules of forest and DT, and you apply all the rules of open ground and DT. One of the rules of open ground is that it wont affect the game, so when combined with DT, it still doesn't affect the game.

 

[RarerMonsters]

You realize you're agreeing with me right? I'm trying to argue it doesn't overwrite the current terrain, anyone saying it works on open ground is arguing it does overwrite current terrain.

No, I am saying that it overwrites current terrain by appending a detail but does not change that's terrain overall classification.

If you can make a forest ALSO DT then you can make Open Ground also DT.

so you apply all the rules of forest and DT, and you apply all the rules of open ground and DT. One of the rules of open ground is that it wont affect the game, so when combined with DT, it still doesn't affect the game.

... that makes no sense. Applying the DT rules overrides the fact that it has no inherent effect.

If I said the contents of a bucket weighed nothing, and you put a rock in it, the bucket would not change in any way but it that previous sentence would no longer be true.

 

[heldantes]

I've read all the posts and I've no idea what's going on.

However, one thing no one seems to have brought out is the issue of Army Book rules always overriding the BRB. Could you argue in this case the wording of the spell in the AB overrides the open terrain having no affect on the game wording in the BRB?

 

[Zhatan]

@LordTobiothan
Transformation of Kadon does not mention statline, now you are making the assumption that just because he is now a hydra he get's a hydras statline. See you do the same thing.

 

[Wilhelm das Blutige]

I've read all the posts and I've no idea what's going on.

However, one thing no one seems to have brought out is the issue of Army Book rules always overriding the BRB. Could you argue in this case the wording of the spell in the AB overrides the open terrain having no affect on the game wording in the BRB?

Curse of Anraheir is in the BRB.

 

[heldantes]

Haha that's embarrassing. I thought it was some Lore of Athel thingy spell.

 

[LordTobiothan]

@LordTobiothan
Transformation of Kadon does not mention statline, now you are making the assumption that just because he is now a hydra he get's a hydras statline. See you do the same thing.

That isn't an assumption. The hydra makes no mention of a stat line either. The stat line next to the hydras entry makes no explicit mention of it being the hydras stat line, it simply states hydra before it, the BRB tells you to look at that stat line if you are a hydra.

So when you are asked "whats your models weapon skill" What do you do? You find the name of your model and read its weapon skill, which is what the BRB tells you to do. The name of your model after using transform is Hydra, so you look up hydra, and read the weapon skill.

1. Models name changed to hydra; as per transforms description
2. BRB says to look at the creatures stat line labeled after the creature.
3. creature name is now hydra so you look up hydra, use that stat line.
4. Normally looking up hydra would also make you a monster, but transform explicitly states where you can break that rule.

No assumptions were made, every rule was spelled out and followed.

 

[RarerMonsters]

@LordTobiothan
Transformation of Kadon does not mention statline, now you are making the assumption that just because he is now a hydra he get's a hydras statline. See you do the same thing.

No assumptions were made, every rule was spelled out and followed.

Which is also true of CoA, you're just declaring that something isn't explicit enough in its wording to while reading Open Ground's rules to be far more explicit than they are.

 

[LordTobiothan]

@LordTobiothan
Transformation of Kadon does not mention statline, now you are making the assumption that just because he is now a hydra he get's a hydras statline. See you do the same thing.

No assumptions were made, every rule was spelled out and followed.

Which is also true of CoA, you're just declaring that something isn't explicit enough in its wording to while reading Open Ground's rules to be far more explicit than they are.

Well it is true of CoA, if i were to number out the steps of the rules like I did with transformation it would look like:

1. Terrain is also difficult terrain. (in this case add rule DT to open ground)
2. Exception to normal terrain in that it wounds on 1's and 2's during DT tests
3. Terrain is not replaced by the wording in any way and retains its current type and rules.
4. Open ground has the rule "doesn't affect the game"
5. Open ground with CoA cast on it has the "DT tests (on 1's and 2's)", and "does not effect the game" rules

5 is the big one. By having both of the rules they contradict each other. You take the tests that wound on a roll of 1 or 2, but these test aren't allowed to affect the game, and wounding models is a direct effect on the game.

Basically this spell needs clarified one way or the other, until then you can advocate DT tests trump not effecting the game if your using the spell and advocate not effecting the game trumps DT tests if being hit by the spell. Doesn't matter to me, I just prefer not to be told something is RAW when it is your interpretation and nothing else.

Personally I err on the side of the lesser effect when a rule is unclear. It is less likely to break the game, and at worst makes something a less desired option.

 

[Zhatan]

@LordTobiothan
According to your own logic he is both the original model and a hydra and nowhere is it mentioned which of the two statlines to use. And you even said before that base rules have precedence when I said that the new rules should override the old ones.
Don't you realise how ridiculous this is?
If you apply such twisted logic you must at least be consistent about it.

Is this discussion getting out of hand?

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

4. Open ground has the rule "doesn't affect the game"

This is a pretty huge stretch. For context, here is the full text of the rule in question:

OPEN GROUND
Open terrain is the most prevalent type of battlefield terrain and thus the 'default* setting — any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground. All the rules as presented thus far assume that your game is being played on open terrain — grassy fields, sandy flats, sun-parched earth, and so on. It therefore doesn't affect the game, and we don't need to provide any further detail.

"Open Ground" doesn't affect the rules because the rules have been built with the assumption of operating over Open Ground. Note the emphasis on "therefore."

Also, your argument for preferring the interpretation that "affects the rules less" is arbitrary. The preference should err towards whichever interpretation is best supported by the plainest reading of the rule, as supported by the context and other analogous situations. "Open Terrain" is specifically defined as a type of terrain. Curse of Arnheir modifies ALL terrain. The plainest reading of the rule is that Curse modifies open terrain.

 

[Skittelz1981]

grrrrrrrrrrrr



- Open ground is a terrain type.
- Open ground in itself doesnt do anything (unless some other ruling comes into play).
- CoA makes units view all terrain types as DT.
- A unit with CoA on Open ground therefore treats it as DT.


No questions, no room for doubt, and watch the emphasis on the periods after each sentence.

A unit hexed by CoA views ALL TERRAIN TYPES (INCLUDING OPEN GROUND, WHICH UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTAMCES DOESNT AFFECT THE GAME) as DANGEROUS TERRAIN.

CoA clearly is the exception to normal, this means that whatever it is usually, is now different.

 

[Ripper]

It' a hex. You can't cast a hex on your own unit. The spell would make more sense if it only turned terrain features into dangerous terrain, and not open ground. I think it was originally intended that way. Otherwise, why doesn't it just say 'if the unit moves for any reason' in stead of 'treats all terrain as...'

Saying 'if the unit moves for any reason...' would not have the same effect as stating '...as dangerous terrain...'. Normally, units only have to make dangerous terrain tests for marching, charging, pursuing, fleeing or overrunning through such terrain, not for just moving normally.

Aaah. I've been playing this wrong. Or more accurately my opponent has been cheating.

 

[LordTobiothan]

@LordTobiothan
According to your own logic he is both the original model and a hydra and nowhere is it mentioned which of the two statlines to use. And you even said before that base rules have precedence when I said that the new rules should override the old ones.
Don't you realise how ridiculous this is?
If you apply such twisted logic you must at least be consistent about it.

Is this discussion getting out of hand?

Well yeah if you twist my logic it becomes twisted logic. According to my actual logic that I've written down, transformation clearly states it changes your model.

Whereas CoA does not state it changes the terrain, it only adds a rule. So I am consistent, you are just ignoring the part in transform that says which model you now are in order to make me sound inconsistent.

This is a pretty huge stretch. For context, here is the full text of the rule in question:

OPEN GROUND
Open terrain is the most prevalent type of battlefield terrain and thus the 'default* setting — any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground. All the rules as presented thus far assume that your game is being played on open terrain — grassy fields, sandy flats, sun-parched earth, and so on. It therefore doesn't affect the game, and we don't need to provide any further detail.

"Open Ground" doesn't affect the rules because the rules have been built with the assumption of operating over Open Ground. Note the emphasis on "therefore."

Also, your argument for preferring the interpretation that "affects the rules less" is arbitrary. The preference should err towards whichever interpretation is best supported by the plainest reading of the rule, as supported by the context and other analogous situations. "Open Terrain" is specifically defined as a type of terrain. Curse of Arnheir modifies ALL terrain. The plainest reading of the rule is that Curse modifies open terrain.

Look for the word I bolded, no question pertaining to RAW can ever say or imply that word.

grrrrrrrrrrrr



- Open ground is a terrain type.
- Open ground in itself doesnt do anything (unless some other ruling comes into play).
- CoA makes units view all terrain types as DT.
- A unit with CoA on Open ground therefore treats it as DT.


No questions, no room for doubt, and watch the emphasis on the periods after each sentence.

A unit hexed by CoA views ALL TERRAIN TYPES (INCLUDING OPEN GROUND, WHICH UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTAMCES DOESNT AFFECT THE GAME) as DANGEROUS TERRAIN.

CoA clearly is the exception to normal, this means that whatever it is usually, is now different.

Look for the bolded part. No where do the rules even suggest this. You are saying that as an assumption of the rules, which has no place in a RAW discussion.

Look for the second bolded part. If this statement were true then I could turn a poisonous forest into a regular one. Since this is not the case, that statement cannot be true.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Wow lord Tobiathan.........

Its really simple.
The terrain doesnt change nor do the rules for it.
The unit on the other hand, has been hexed, which changes the way the unit behaves on any terrain type.

You keep going on RAW and assumptions, fact is that the RAW for CoA is that the hexed unit views All terrain as DT.
there is just nothing else that matters anymore because even Open ground is a terrain type, so to hell with your fascination of the RAW for the Open Ground rule.
The hex changes the way the unit has to behave( which is the purpose of the spell)

 

[Blutsauger]

It's very simple.

Open ground is a type of terrain.

CoA makes that type of terrain dangerous.

End of discussion.

 

[RarerMonsters]

RAW doesn't say that OG has no effect on the game. The word "therefore" in the description indicates that they were describing the effect of the actual raw in explaining why they weren't talking about it further.

Again, it's like the following sentence.

"There is nothing in this bucket, therefore I can lift it."
The factual statement is "Nothing in this bucket". "I can lift it" is an inference based on the statement.

If you were to put a heavy weight in the bucket and tell me I can no longer lift it, your statement would not contradict mine because the inference "I can lift it" was based on the condition of nothing being in the bucket.


In this instance, the statement "has no effect on the game" is not a rule, it is an inference based on the rules. If something changes the rules (ie a spell) that doesn't contradict the inference because the inference was based on conditions no longer true.

 

[heldantes]

That's a pretty good analogy.

 

[Wilhelm das Blutige]

RAW doesn't say that OG has no effect on the game. The word "therefore" in the description indicates that they were describing the effect of the actual raw in explaining why they weren't talking about it further.

Again, it's like the following sentence.

"There is nothing in this bucket, therefore I can lift it."
The factual statement is "Nothing in this bucket". "I can lift it" is an inference based on the statement.

If you were to put a heavy weight in the bucket and tell me I can no longer lift it, your statement would not contradict mine because the inference "I can lift it" was based on the condition of nothing being in the bucket.


In this instance, the statement "has no effect on the game" is not a rule, it is an inference based on the rules. If something changes the rules (ie a spell) that doesn't contradict the inference because the inference was based on conditions no longer true.

Hardly convincing. You start by saying that the rules (referred to by you as RAW) do not say that Open Ground has no effect on the game, when in actual fact that is exactly what it DOES say.

Rather than going into philosophical gobbledigook about buckets with nothing in them, I think it would be better to try to keep it simple. There is a rules clash, that much is certain, but the debate over which rule should be used is heavily in favour of using the Curse of Anraheir ruling as far as popular opinion is concerned. Not only that, TOs rule that Curse of Anraheir even affects Open Ground.

Having looked at this further, I tend to think that the statement under Open Ground (...therefore has no effect on the game...) is a generalisation rather than an absolute, and so would go along with popular opinion in this regard i.e. Curse of Anraheir affects units charging/marching etc. over Open Ground as well.

Besides which, if units are not affected by moving over open ground by this spell, how would you handle hills? They are treated as open ground as well.

 

[RarerMonsters]

Having looked at this further, I tend to think that the statement under Open Ground (...therefore has no effect on the game...) is a generalisation rather than an absolute, and so would go along with popular opinion in this regard i.e. Curse of Anraheir affects units charging/marching etc. over Open Ground as well.

That's exactly what I said. I just used a logical comparison to backup my reading. (The "Philosophical gobbldygook" you mentioned)

Also, as a note, RAW is not just "any words in the book". It refers to things written out and proffered as rules. It does not include generalizations or interpolations like this one.