Dark Elves
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This is what I can remember.
1 Horde of 28 Witchelves pushing the COB
1 unit of 20 repeater crossbowmen with flame banner serving as wizard bunker
3 repeater bolt throwers
30 executioners
20 black guard with LD banner to hold the flank
2 units of 5 dark riders
2 units of 10 warlocks IF casting doombolt for lots of dmg "only loosing d3 models to do that is insane"
1 Horde of 28 Witchelves pushing the COB
1 unit of 20 repeater crossbowmen with flame banner serving as wizard bunker
3 repeater bolt throwers
30 executioners
20 black guard with LD banner to hold the flank
2 units of 5 dark riders
2 units of 10 warlocks IF casting doombolt for lots of dmg "only loosing d3 models to do that is insane"
Fighting both elves now is actually pretty similar:
They all get re-rolls with every troop (except executioners). But have a low T and average armor.
Get some form of save against S3 attacks, them being armour, regen or Invocation of Nehek.
Medusas will kill all ethereals, so keep them away from them!!!
Killing blow? Well now we have the Coven Throne to deal with it. Or even Crypt Horrors/Varghulf on the flank.
Lots and lots of frenzy means?... yesh, chaff and redirection!! Use your Fell bats/ Dire Wolves like crazy!
As always, 1+ AS vampires will wreck most their units. As will Lore of Death (Caress/Fate will get them with only S3/4 and T3)
Hmmmm look out for the Cloak of Twilight... that can actually hurt a Vampire Lord.
Bat Swarm/Nightshroud the hell out of them!
That's all I can think of right now
They all get re-rolls with every troop (except executioners). But have a low T and average armor.
Get some form of save against S3 attacks, them being armour, regen or Invocation of Nehek.
Medusas will kill all ethereals, so keep them away from them!!!
Killing blow? Well now we have the Coven Throne to deal with it. Or even Crypt Horrors/Varghulf on the flank.
Lots and lots of frenzy means?... yesh, chaff and redirection!! Use your Fell bats/ Dire Wolves like crazy!
As always, 1+ AS vampires will wreck most their units. As will Lore of Death (Caress/Fate will get them with only S3/4 and T3)
Hmmmm look out for the Cloak of Twilight... that can actually hurt a Vampire Lord.
Bat Swarm/Nightshroud the hell out of them!
That's all I can think of right now
Forgotten Heretic
Grave Guard
Try some Ghouls in the flank of the witch elves, they have no armour and will need a 5+ to wound the ghouls on their non poisoned rolls, without magic help that is
but the witches sport a 5+ ward with the cauldron.
but still, getting to witches flanks helps alot.
or as mentioned, bait the frenzy around
but still, getting to witches flanks helps alot.
or as mentioned, bait the frenzy around
black coaches are your friends chuck that into mthe unit and watch as they struggle to wound it then just wound it up as it shouldnt die to combat res as its hard hitting its especially great with a vamp with master of the black arts as you get a greater chance of a high dice magic phase get it to ethereal and its game over for those wyches 3+ 4++ t6 ftw
Well, let's do a Rare recount here against the Witch Elves+ cauldron:
Terrorgheist: dies due to poisoned attacks. Screams will do the lowest of damage, due to their general's inspiring presence of 10 or so. Better send him off elsewhere.
Mortis Engine: same as above, only that it actually has a save. Now, the witches can also use the Flaming Banner and get... hot poison (acid? haha). Still, gives our units a regen save and it's not all that bad. Screams will do poor damage here. Impact hits will actually hurt some elves, better charge them on the flank with this one.
Cairn Wraiths: not that bad since they are 3A each, Ethereal and wound them nicely (2+). Since they are immune to Terror due to frenzy, they'll be a little hard to hit, but a unit of 5 wraiths can dish out 15 attacks, not bad. The character on top of the cauldron will have a Magic Weapon though, and with so many attacks, the wraiths will die before they can hit. A Hero Wraith or Banshee champ can tie her up for a round.
Black Coach: our most armoured and thoughest model by far. It will receive very few wounds, but can only dish out 5 attacks, 3 of those should wound easily and 2 from the nightmares with 3+. The thing is, Elves still have ranks and a standard, so... the coach must do ~4 wounds per round to keep himself alive. Nice if it's como charging with another unit (Black Knights maybe), or if a Spirit Host is fighting them on the flank/rear for added CR (and safe from the Death Hag).
Varghulf: He has half(ish) the saves the Coach has, but has a much higher potential to damage them too. Has Hatred and Thunderstomp. A very high T and 5 attacks with the same WS. He is very mobile too, so he should get flank/rear charges easily. Still, against that many amount of poisoned attacks... just believe in his Regen save.
Blood Knights: this is the Unit that I wanted to get to. S3 hits will still get them full armour save. Blood Knights have higher WS, so they can hit them easier. The only drawback here is the Initiative. True, elves have ASF, but Nightshroud could thake care of that, still even so, they are I6!!! so they still strike befor the knights (but no re-rolls, which is very important). Melkot's Miasma is key here, also the elves must lose the first combat, so they lose frenzy. Dispeling their bound spell prevents them from regaining it. A vampire Lord/hero there with the nightshroud can dispatch the Death Hag there (since she's the only one who can have more Strength with a magic weapon, at the cost of losing her poisoned attacks).
So... yeah, Blood Knights! haha. Black Knights are also a good (but from the Special section), have fewer attacks/WS, yet the same armour save. Blood Knights can also take dreadspears with ease. They can also wreck Medusae and Hydras (no regen save now.. and their attacks decrease as they lose wounds) on the charge. Kharibdis is another matter. It can die... since it strikes after the Blood Knights, but has a very high WS for a monster, and a lot of S... so the vampires better kill this while they can.
Against that many enemies... the Knights are actually good against DE. What you would pay for 2 terrorgheists you can get... 8 Knights or so.
I'll try this next time, and tell you about it, haha
Terrorgheist: dies due to poisoned attacks. Screams will do the lowest of damage, due to their general's inspiring presence of 10 or so. Better send him off elsewhere.
Mortis Engine: same as above, only that it actually has a save. Now, the witches can also use the Flaming Banner and get... hot poison (acid? haha). Still, gives our units a regen save and it's not all that bad. Screams will do poor damage here. Impact hits will actually hurt some elves, better charge them on the flank with this one.
Cairn Wraiths: not that bad since they are 3A each, Ethereal and wound them nicely (2+). Since they are immune to Terror due to frenzy, they'll be a little hard to hit, but a unit of 5 wraiths can dish out 15 attacks, not bad. The character on top of the cauldron will have a Magic Weapon though, and with so many attacks, the wraiths will die before they can hit. A Hero Wraith or Banshee champ can tie her up for a round.
Black Coach: our most armoured and thoughest model by far. It will receive very few wounds, but can only dish out 5 attacks, 3 of those should wound easily and 2 from the nightmares with 3+. The thing is, Elves still have ranks and a standard, so... the coach must do ~4 wounds per round to keep himself alive. Nice if it's como charging with another unit (Black Knights maybe), or if a Spirit Host is fighting them on the flank/rear for added CR (and safe from the Death Hag).
Varghulf: He has half(ish) the saves the Coach has, but has a much higher potential to damage them too. Has Hatred and Thunderstomp. A very high T and 5 attacks with the same WS. He is very mobile too, so he should get flank/rear charges easily. Still, against that many amount of poisoned attacks... just believe in his Regen save.
Blood Knights: this is the Unit that I wanted to get to. S3 hits will still get them full armour save. Blood Knights have higher WS, so they can hit them easier. The only drawback here is the Initiative. True, elves have ASF, but Nightshroud could thake care of that, still even so, they are I6!!! so they still strike befor the knights (but no re-rolls, which is very important). Melkot's Miasma is key here, also the elves must lose the first combat, so they lose frenzy. Dispeling their bound spell prevents them from regaining it. A vampire Lord/hero there with the nightshroud can dispatch the Death Hag there (since she's the only one who can have more Strength with a magic weapon, at the cost of losing her poisoned attacks).
So... yeah, Blood Knights! haha. Black Knights are also a good (but from the Special section), have fewer attacks/WS, yet the same armour save. Blood Knights can also take dreadspears with ease. They can also wreck Medusae and Hydras (no regen save now.. and their attacks decrease as they lose wounds) on the charge. Kharibdis is another matter. It can die... since it strikes after the Blood Knights, but has a very high WS for a monster, and a lot of S... so the vampires better kill this while they can.
Against that many enemies... the Knights are actually good against DE. What you would pay for 2 terrorgheists you can get... 8 Knights or so.
I'll try this next time, and tell you about it, haha
Baron Ledbetter
Zombie
Problem is, if someone like our Dark Elf player puts Hellebron with a cauldron in the WE unit you're looking at a world of pain. Hellebron wrecks any character/monster/armoured unit you try and throw at the unit (8-10 str10 attacks with rerolls everywhere with ASF/I9) and then the bajillion WE rerolling poison attacks wipe out anything soft. The cauldron gives a 5+ ward save, and Hellebron is giving +4 to any dispel.
I can't see anything beating that combo in combat. When I play him I'm planning on tarpitting and redirecting for all I'm worth (witchbrew gives -3 ld for restraining tests, but not that big of a hindrance when the cauldron is a BSB). Thankfully, it's almost half his army, so *IF* I can feed it loads of zombies I can mash the rest of his army.
I can't see anything beating that combo in combat. When I play him I'm planning on tarpitting and redirecting for all I'm worth (witchbrew gives -3 ld for restraining tests, but not that big of a hindrance when the cauldron is a BSB). Thankfully, it's almost half his army, so *IF* I can feed it loads of zombies I can mash the rest of his army.
If the cauldron + hellebron is the problem, then redirecting it should be very easy.
Now, Hellebron herself is naked (save for her Ward save) so... should we consider using a Vargheist conga line to take her out?
All elves will strike at ASF phase. And 7 attacks should be enough to kill her, since she has T3 and.... 5++? Maybe it's a 4++, but still.
If you feel the very urge to kill her... field 2 units of 3 Varghs + champ. 4 Varghs + champ if you believe they will fall to shooting attacks.
EDIT: Reading the book, her Magic Weapons resolve their hits at S10... shouldn't Nightshroud take care of this problem? (negating the increased Strength). None of them have Killing Blow / D3 Wounds (unless they field another character, a Khainite Assassin with the Cloak of Twilight) so.. a 1+ AS Nightshroud vampire can deal with her. Even before she gets to strike!
Now, Hellebron herself is naked (save for her Ward save) so... should we consider using a Vargheist conga line to take her out?
All elves will strike at ASF phase. And 7 attacks should be enough to kill her, since she has T3 and.... 5++? Maybe it's a 4++, but still.
If you feel the very urge to kill her... field 2 units of 3 Varghs + champ. 4 Varghs + champ if you believe they will fall to shooting attacks.
EDIT: Reading the book, her Magic Weapons resolve their hits at S10... shouldn't Nightshroud take care of this problem? (negating the increased Strength). None of them have Killing Blow / D3 Wounds (unless they field another character, a Khainite Assassin with the Cloak of Twilight) so.. a 1+ AS Nightshroud vampire can deal with her. Even before she gets to strike!
Demian said:
The answer to this is always no. Varg conga lines are a shameful abuse of the rules and should never be employed.
Baron Ledbetter said:
Yeah this unit is going to be tough. I think it is actually even harder without the cauldron because the cauldron can be sniped out of the unit for points.
I made up a list the other day. It goes like this.
Level 4 with 4++, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Life
Hellebron
Master BSB with 2+ and Ring of Hotec (anything cast at the unit miscasts on double 1's and Magic Resistence 3)
Assassin with Killing Blow and +2 Strength Sword
Assassin with Killing Blow and +2 Attack Sword
Assassin with Killing Blow, Additional Hand Weapon, and Other Tricksters Shard
67 Witch Elves
-Full Command
-Razor Standard
10 Warlocks
10 Warlocks
Not the easiest thing to get points from. Either try to get it from Fast Cav with Movement 9 and a 4++ (getting brought back to life from the Lore of Life Mage), or engage the deathstar and face an insane amount of ASF attacsk before you even get to strike. You could get lucky with a death snipe or something, but MR3 gives a 4++ even to that.
Aedin said:
It does, and that is a good combo.
HOWEVER, I still feel that it is better to just not take the Cauldron. The Cauldron can be shot out by cannons/bolt throwers/stone throwers/etc. Then they have enough points right there to win the game and just avoid the witch elves the rest of the game.
Well.. if Conga doesn't suit your particular taste, there is still much to do against a hellebron+cauldron list.
Making a deathstar always has the same drawback, which is mobility. In this case, Witch Elves are frenzied, so it's a double drawback in terms of strategy.
In the above list mentioned, and without tailoring any VC list, you can play with some redirectors and ambush that horde with enough units to disabl it. How?
First, you'll use your standard Cavalry list, with a VL riding in it. Nightshroud here is key, since it will enable the vampires to survive assassins (and hellebron). Fell bats/Dire Wolves to set the horde to a "chargeable" position and ethereals to close the trap.
Rares are really your choice, being Varghulf to hunt down the Warlocks or Black Coach to survive the sheer amount of punishment the Witches can dish out until the trap is complete. Blood Knights are also an option here.
Special can include (in a regular all-comers list) a unit or two of Vargheists. Those can take care of Fast Cavalry.
The trap? Well, you must charge the horde in both flanks, so that the Unit can't reform and the vampires grind down elf by elf until they break. Coven Throne works best, since the character on top of it is immune to Killing Blow, and if Hellebron challenges, the only one answering it should be the vampire with the Nightshroud. Now, since I'm not clear whether the Cauldron can make way or not, it sufices to jam a small Wolf unit there to keep it from using Make Way, just for the 1st round.
The trick? Unce the assassins are revealed, they'll move where they need to be, but if ethereals did their job right, some will not be able to Make Way and the ones that do, will never leave their new position. by the end or the round, even if VC loses combat (should not be by that much) at least 2 fronts of the horde should be engaged and no reform is possible. Next round, with debuffs or not, there are no more surprises, and you can start poppin caps on all assassins, one by one if they did not die already.
Again, this is against a non-tailored list, with 1-2 Vampires, Necros, standard Black Knight cavalry and even Terrorgheists, since the horde consumes a lot of points for them to have shooting. Eventually the cauldron will drop or Hellebron will die.
Maybe it's not the best strategy (others would feed it small chaff all day long, and kill the Warlocks and win the game, since they are not cheap), but it's something!
Making a deathstar always has the same drawback, which is mobility. In this case, Witch Elves are frenzied, so it's a double drawback in terms of strategy.
In the above list mentioned, and without tailoring any VC list, you can play with some redirectors and ambush that horde with enough units to disabl it. How?
First, you'll use your standard Cavalry list, with a VL riding in it. Nightshroud here is key, since it will enable the vampires to survive assassins (and hellebron). Fell bats/Dire Wolves to set the horde to a "chargeable" position and ethereals to close the trap.
Rares are really your choice, being Varghulf to hunt down the Warlocks or Black Coach to survive the sheer amount of punishment the Witches can dish out until the trap is complete. Blood Knights are also an option here.
Special can include (in a regular all-comers list) a unit or two of Vargheists. Those can take care of Fast Cavalry.
The trap? Well, you must charge the horde in both flanks, so that the Unit can't reform and the vampires grind down elf by elf until they break. Coven Throne works best, since the character on top of it is immune to Killing Blow, and if Hellebron challenges, the only one answering it should be the vampire with the Nightshroud. Now, since I'm not clear whether the Cauldron can make way or not, it sufices to jam a small Wolf unit there to keep it from using Make Way, just for the 1st round.
The trick? Unce the assassins are revealed, they'll move where they need to be, but if ethereals did their job right, some will not be able to Make Way and the ones that do, will never leave their new position. by the end or the round, even if VC loses combat (should not be by that much) at least 2 fronts of the horde should be engaged and no reform is possible. Next round, with debuffs or not, there are no more surprises, and you can start poppin caps on all assassins, one by one if they did not die already.
Again, this is against a non-tailored list, with 1-2 Vampires, Necros, standard Black Knight cavalry and even Terrorgheists, since the horde consumes a lot of points for them to have shooting. Eventually the cauldron will drop or Hellebron will die.
Maybe it's not the best strategy (others would feed it small chaff all day long, and kill the Warlocks and win the game, since they are not cheap), but it's something!
Count Matthewzilla
Vargheist
John Rainbow
Crypt Horror
Yeah, avoid Witch Elves as stated. I would also make sure to kill any Warlocks ASAP too, something ranged probably makes the most sense i.e. gheist or magic missile or some such as the unit counts as a lvl.2 wizard and has a couple of nasty spells - doombolt which takes out ethereals and soulblight for a combat hex.
i still dont get why black coach was dismissed it will get the charge and after one magic phase it should be flaming magical impact hits d6+1 and a extra strenght on the horsey and wraith and that 3+ 4++ is not to be dismissed it will hold it up so well i do aggree blood knights are good but your gonna get hit alot hard than just four models with a bloodknight bus and they just arnt as tanky 
+ 195 points to tie up unit
+ 195 points to tie up unit
Those witch elves will be utterly annihilated by Empire lists, bombard them till they are dust and clean them up with 1+ armour.
The issue with the coach is that it can't march so it's nice and slow (Well M8 so as slow as your marching infintry) and you can't really go up against ranked up units. 3 ranks + banner + any wounds caused. I mean, 1st round you should be okay because of the impact hits but after that you only have 5 mediocre attacks with no static res.
LevDaddy
Ghoul
LevDaddy you mean the Corpse Cart (Special) in your post, haha.
Yeah, Corpse Cart is M4 and should never enter Combat, except against other mediocre Core units since it has a Regen save.
Black Coach (Rare) is a very powerful model, that can take out small battallions, monsters and is great against Cavalry (most cavs have no ranks and rely on wounds caused to win).
The problem is, it can't fight on his own against ranked infantry, but is great as a support charger, it almost never bleeds CR.
Blood Knights are considered almost useless in 8th, since there are always better choices, but I sugested them because I believe in them! haha. It's just a matter to put them to good use against the proper enemies.
Yeah, Corpse Cart is M4 and should never enter Combat, except against other mediocre Core units since it has a Regen save.
Black Coach (Rare) is a very powerful model, that can take out small battallions, monsters and is great against Cavalry (most cavs have no ranks and rely on wounds caused to win).
The problem is, it can't fight on his own against ranked infantry, but is great as a support charger, it almost never bleeds CR.
Blood Knights are considered almost useless in 8th, since there are always better choices, but I sugested them because I believe in them! haha. It's just a matter to put them to good use against the proper enemies.
