Dealing with a Daemon Prince

[Vipoid]

Don't we all, sadly is the nature of 8th ed, I played a game without any magic today, it was a struggle

I played a game yesterday and couldn't get a single spell off - does that count? :'(

Hellsteed vamp over a nightmare. The save is slightly worse but the mobility is far superior. RF, QB, ToP with sword of choice and an magic armor of some sort.

Trouble is, it's the same problem - whichever weapon you choose, you're not going to do much. Red Fury is basically worthless against the DP, because you're not even averaging a single wound with your base attacks. And, the main use of Quickblood is the rerolls - which are also unobtainable because the DP has ridiculous initiative.

 

[logan054]

I played a game yesterday and couldn't get a single spell off - does that count? :'(

I have that whenever I play my mates Lizardmen, I think managed to cast 3 spells all game, god I hate Slann.

 

[Yorga]

I played a game yesterday and couldn't get a single spell off - does that count? :'(

I have that whenever I play my mates Lizardmen, I think managed to cast 3 spells all game, god I hate Slann.

Rep for you because you are a member of the "He-man Slann Haters" club.

 

[eggsPR]

Welp, ETC delt with all the silliness that is the new WoC.

Core Chaos chariots, Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds are each 0-3
Hell Cannon 0-1
Skullcrushers max 6 models.
Talisman of Preservation/Armour of Destiny/Third eye of Tzeentch, max 1 on same model.
A Daemon Prince model can have max 2 of Scaly skin/Soul feeder/Chaos armour/Mark of Nurgle
Flyers max 4, models with the regenerating flesh upgrade count as 2.

If you only play uncomped Warhammer... sucks to be you :'(

 

[Yorga]

Welp, ETC delt with all the silliness that is the new WoC.

Core Chaos chariots, Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds are each 0-3
Hell Cannon 0-1
Skullcrushers max 6 models.
Talisman of Preservation/Armour of Destiny/Third eye of Tzeentch, max 1 on same model.
A Daemon Prince model can have max 2 of Scaly skin/Soul feeder/Chaos armour/Mark of Nurgle
Flyers max 4, models with the regenerating flesh upgrade count as 2.

If you only play uncomped Warhammer... sucks to be you :'(

No. Sucks to play ETC. Those restrictions are bullocks (a castrated bull). Talk about swatting a fly with a cannon.

 

[Gatti]

Honestly, try this vampire lord.

Vampire Lord
-nightmare or Hellsteed
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Ogre Blade
-Talisman of Preservation
-Other Tricksters Shard
-Red Fury
-Quick Blood
-Beguile

Sure, hes expensive. But beguile is pretty huge against a solo model that I predict will not often be near the BSB, since the BSB is unnecessary for him (unbreakable and free reforms, no reason to keep the BSB close, particularly since warriors of chaos lost auto re roll panic tests, the BSB will be with the main line in most games).

The output of this character is 0.96 wounds/round (including the unlikely chance of a red fury wound). This is assuming mark of nurgle.

In return, if mounted on a hellsteed (so 3+ save), and the prince passes the beguile test, the prince deals 0.93 wounds/round (quickblood removes the chance of the daemon prince getting re rolls for ASF, there are two items they can take to get ASF). This difference in wound output is largely dictated by the difference of S6 vs S7 against a T5 enemy, and its impact on armor saves.

If the prince fails beguile (58% chance of failing if BSB is not nearby), this drops to 0.61 wounds/round.

If mounted on a nightmare (so 2+ save) these wounds drop to 0.74 and 0.49 for pass/fail beguile, respectively.

Now, this isn't taking into account the possibility of the OTS on the Prince, which is possible, but even with OTS, the number of wounds is on average 0.74 and 1.11 wounds/round for fail/pass respectively if on nightmare, and 0.93/1.39 if on hellsteed. Not a done deal per se, particularly if the prince is already wounded.

I think the best way to handle a prince is to use either death snipes or screams (or both) to weaken the prince, then send in the vampire lord. You may get lucky with a snipe or scream, but if you don't, as long as you deal a few wounds and engage away from the BSB you should have a solid chance. Much of this is reliant on player skill to outmaneuver the chaos warrior player, but it is far from impossible. I think out of all armies that don't have a cannon, we are the best equipped to handle a daemon prince.

It will require you to outplay your opponent, sure. But it is doable. And it is much more fun than "pray you can charge some zombies into him", though this is also a valid tactic.

 

[BloodbathMcGrath]

What happens if you do, by chance, tie down the Prince? And then some dick head aspiring champ ascends into daemonhood??? (I bought the book today by the way..)..or worse if an exalted hero ascends, he keeps his gear. Good luck dealing with two princes, one fully kitted and one kitted with hero-level gear...

I'm not saying these fully kitted Princes are unkillable- but I'm definitely saying that I am already on the TG bandwagon, sorry. I mean, I'm taking one or two TGs anyway in a lot of lists, I'm sure half of the VC players out there are also as well. So if my TG is already on the board....why would I not use it to take down the nastiest single model unit on the board??

My idea, single TG single ME list. CHs protecting the TG, try my hardest to tie up the prince as he closes in (he might have to get within charge range of my units before he can hop them and get to my TG) If I tie him up, it's only a matter of a good scream against average rolling on his ward saves. ME supports my troops that have to deal with the rest of his army.

Or maybe, just maybe if I can get him to fight CHs backed by ME- Can they throw enough poison to tear him down, or will he just keep healing with his ability more likely?

 

[logan054]

No. Sucks to play ETC. Those restrictions are bullocks (a castrated bull). Talk about swatting a fly with a cannon.

Rep for you! I don't see the point in the crusher restrictions, you can't take more than 7 with any upgrades at that points level, good thing the personal who wrote it has even picked up the armybook!!

daemon prince nerfs are just silly, I can see restricting soul hunger, chaos armour and scaled skin with MoN, but only being able to take two is heavy handed.

It also ignores the shrine, chosen, daemon prince factor, basically, who ever wrote it just doesn't have a clue.

Honestly, try this vampire lord.

Vampire Lord
-nightmare or Hellsteed
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Ogre Blade
-Talisman of Preservation
-Other Tricksters Shard
-Red Fury
-Quick Blood
-Beguile

Honestly that isn't that impressive, a nurgle daemon prince could happily grind that down and your pretty screwed if they decide to go glittering scales (which I have seen mentioned several times).

 

[Commisarlestat]

Crypt horrors against a creature who can get cheap flaming poisoned attacks?
Might be worth a try. You still have to catch him though.

A

 

[Vipoid]

I have that whenever I play my mates Lizardmen, I think managed to cast 3 spells all game, god I hate Slann.

Ah, yes, the delights of Slaan.

And, of course, Cupped Hands defines 'fun'...

What happens if you do, by chance, tie down the Prince? And then some dick head aspiring champ ascends into daemonhood??? (I bought the book today by the way..)..or worse if an exalted hero ascends, he keeps his gear. Good luck dealing with two princes, one fully kitted and one kitted with hero-level gear...

This happened to my 500pt Vampire Lord in my first game against WoC. Oh goody, a champion killed a Crypt Ghast - apparently he's now worthy of ascension to daemonhood.

 

[eggsPR]

This happened to my 500pt Vampire Lord in my first game against WoC. Oh goody, a champion killed a Crypt Ghast - apparently he's now worthy of ascension to daemonhood.

The chaos gods are fickle

 

[Gokamok]

So, how about this:

Vampire Lord on Hellsteed
- 4+ ward, Glittering Scales, Sword of Striking (Is there room for OTS? not near my rulebook right now.)
- AoDM, Beguile, Dread Knight, Master Strike (Yes, for the first time ever it might have a use!)

So, the DP hits on 5+, with a 72% chance of rerolling hits due to Beguile, then he has to get past the 4+ ward.

We're hitting on 4+, and then praying for an HKB to help us out. Spamming Vanhels/Vigour should probably help out

 

[Gatti]

Honestly that isn't that impressive, a nurgle daemon prince could happily grind that down and your pretty screwed if they decide to go glittering scales (which I have seen mentioned several times).

Firstly, note I provided the math of that match-up in my post. The vampire averages more wounds, and if the prince fails beguile, the lord will kill him. Sure, if the prince keeps passing beguile every round, the vampire lord will die first because the prince has 1 more wound on his profile, but if he starts failing beguile, or if you can get through a lore attribute wound to your lord (or deal 1 or more wound to the prince before challenging him with the vampire lord), the prince will go down first on average.

And why would anyone go glittering scales? A 6 always hits (doesn't necessarily always wound, but always hits), so that's overkill against anything but characters. And if someone takes scales, they can get at most 4+ armor (since they can't take chaos armor, as scales counts as light armor), so I would actually be okay with that. Note, getting a wound through a model where you hit on 5s and it has 1+ armor is significantly harder, statistically, than hitting on 6s with 4+ armor. So scales literally makes zero sense to me.

 

[Gokamok]

(snip)

And why would anyone go glittering scales? A 6 always hits (doesn't necessarily always wound, but always hits), so that's overkill against anything but characters. And if someone takes scales, they can get at most 4+ armor (since they can't take chaos armor, as scales counts as light armor), so I would actually be okay with that. Note, getting a wound through a model where you hit on 5s and it has 1+ armor is significantly harder, statistically, than hitting on 6s with 4+ armor. So scales literally makes zero sense to me.

Very good point about Glittering Scales there; it seems we have a tendency to forget that the DP still has a limitation on how much gear he can actually carry!
I guess the "standard" setup will be something like Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem and Sword of Striking, which can still cause all kinds of trouble...

 

[Vipoid]

So, how about this:

Vampire Lord on Hellsteed
- 4+ ward, Glittering Scales, Sword of Striking (Is there room for OTS? not near my rulebook right now.)
- AoDM, Beguile, Dread Knight, Master Strike (Yes, for the first time ever it might have a use!)

So, the DP hits on 5+, with a 72% chance of rerolling hits due to Beguile, then he has to get past the 4+ ward.

We're hitting on 4+, and then praying for an HKB to help us out. Spamming Vanhels/Vigour should probably help out

Well, if you're using all 5 of your attacks, then you're inflicting 0.37 wounds on average.

Without rerolls, you have a 7.5% chance of successful killing him with HKB. i.e. it will take, on average, 13-14 rounds of combat to kill the DP.



There have been several suggestions here that seem to revolve around a Vampire Lord/SGK with wings (or a winged mount), basically flying out to meet the DP and at least tie him up for most of the game.

Now, I have to ask, do you really think that we're getting the better deal when we do this? Now, when I take a blender lord, it's generally so that he can support my units - to help them get through heavily-armoured targets, deal with characters/monsters, or simply stop them losing an absurd amount of CR.

On the other hand, a DP can't join WoC squads, and they rarely seem to need his support. Generally, he seems to fly around casting spells and doing whatever he feels like. Even if we engage him (and assuming that nothing else joins in to kill our lord), he can still cast most of his spells at our other units. But, we now have no blender to help our ghouls (or whichever unit) survive in combat.

My point is, even if the Blender Vamp ties up a DP of equal cost, it seems that we're losing out a lot more than the WoC player.

 

[Gokamok]

@Vipoid:
I think you're absolutely right that there is not much point in seeking a Lord vs. Prince confrontation on our part, and a more standard build IS probably the best way to go, and then try to minimize the damage caused by the DP.

As I posted on page 3 in this thread, I think that a 1+ Rerollable AS Wight King BSB has a lot of potential for this. He takes less than 1 wound on average per combat round, and we have a pretty good shot at healing him with magic. That's 150ish points tying the DP up for most or all of the battle, while our Vampires and stuff tear up the Skullcrushers

 

[Nagashizzar]

(quickblood removes the chance of the daemon prince getting re rolls)

DP has 1 more I point that the VL if Im not mistaken so the DP will still have reroll if he's ASF.

 

[eggsPR]

(quickblood removes the chance of the daemon prince getting re rolls)

DP has 1 more I point that the VL if Im not mistaken so the DP will still have reroll if he's ASF.

Only if the VL doesn't have QB... And when will that ever happen?

If two models are both ASF, initiative doesn't matter as nobody gets rerolls. Initiative only matters if one model has ASF, and the other doesn't.

That's why having a QB VL with the potion of speed is good against DE dreadlords so they can get rerolls on them for a turn.

DPs can have rerolls against a SGK bc ASF against same initiative equals rerolls. Reason #597 why VL > SGK

Yeah yeah, the SGK will get to reroll on the DP... But that won't matter since he'll be dead with his 5+ regen before he ever gets to strike back. Oh, u have a ME? Flying Chimeras with flaming breath weapons won't ever take them out

 

[Nagashizzar]

Oh right!! Thanks for correcting me!

 

[The Dread King]

Yorga doomwheels rape monster mash.... Take two and win

No Johnny...you have an unreasonable fear of those. I got REAL lucky against your Grail Knights. Like the WLC it's strength is random on the lightning. Moreover, my Dragon Ogres love those things! Like Schwarzenegger said in Commando, "You're a funny guy Sully, I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last."

My friend has the skaven army book, and apparently the WLC works just like a cannon, excepting its weird misfire chart. I didn't think this would be the case, but apparently so. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I think it is time to turn to master strike, sword of striking and OTS.:lol:

 

[bigbadbat]

@ Dread King - WLC and doom wheels have random strength.
@ Johnny - Master Strike!? Surely the apocalypse is nigh!

 

[Melle]

yup
wlc is a cannon . Warp Lightning Cannon

 

[logan054]

Ah, yes, the delights of Slaan.

And, of course, Cupped Hands defines 'fun'...

Oh yes, I had the delights of that last time, thankfully he was out of range of my general, I wish they would hurry up and redo the damn book, its needs the silly things taking out.

This happened to my 500pt Vampire Lord in my first game against WoC. Oh goody, a champion killed a Crypt Ghast - apparently he's now worthy of ascension to daemonhood.

The chaos gods are fickle

Funny you mention that, remember a shirt story in one of the old books about how a Khorne heroe slays a bunch of night goblins and gets turned into daemoin prince for his brave deeds

Honestly that isn't that impressive, a nurgle daemon prince could happily grind that down and your pretty screwed if they decide to go glittering scales (which I have seen mentioned several times).

Firstly, note I provided the math of that match-up in my post. The vampire averages more wounds, and if the prince fails beguile, the lord will kill him. Sure, if the prince keeps passing beguile every round, the vampire lord will die first because the prince has 1 more wound on his profile, but if he starts failing beguile, or if you can get through a lore attribute wound to your lord (or deal 1 or more wound to the prince before challenging him with the vampire lord), the prince will go down first on average.

+1 to hit is more reliable and cheaper on a model with WS9 and S6 and allows for additional items, be that a dragon helm, a charmed shield, whatever. So while you've run some maths it based on a false assumption that daemons princes will have ASF, I don't think many will unless they want poison and/or flaming attacks. So sure, if he fails his leadership test you can force him to reroll, its just a shame its still hitting on a 2+ and has a chance to regain wounds for every wound causes

And why would anyone go glittering scales? A 6 always hits (doesn't necessarily always wound, but always hits)

I have seen it mentioned several times, however as he will be forced into a challenge more often than not, anything WS5-9 will hit him on a 6, anything WS10 will hit him on a 5+.

 

[zzanxy]

Johnny, friends, vampire peers.
I propose a cheesy, unorthodox way to try and beat a kitted DP.

Vampire lord
Quick blood
Aura of dark Majesty
Beguile
Fear incarnate
Dread Knight
LVL4

+2 strength blade
4+ ward
Ots
Heavy armor
Sheild
Mounted on a Coven Throne.

So in total
Vampire is
Ws 9 S7 T5 W3 I7 A5 LD 10
ASF, -1 leadership to everyine in 6in, force DP to take leadership test at -4 so he has to reroll hits, force Re-roll fear tests(dont think the DP takes it anyway but would be helpful against rest of the army)

Coven throne is
M8 WS 5 S5 I5 A2 Ld 7
Ws 3 S3 I1 A2d6
Asf, 5+4+ save, spectral steeds, movement, Battle of wills (each player rolls D6 and adds unit leadership, subtract DP results from Vamps results (0 - nothing, 1-2 -1WS/BS, 3-5 REroll to hit, 6 The enemy turns on themselves, DP Attacks himselve once.)) and bound spell Lvl3 (spell is the coven throne gets to reroll hits or wounds this turn)

Now i dont think Begile stacks with the coven thrones battle of wills,Or if the Vamp on the coven throne gets the Ward save from the throne. If the vamp gets the +4 ward save I would though nightshroud on him to make the DP get asl.

Total points 694 (oh, well shit.)

But anyway. dont even know where to begin doing the math on this. but I think this might just beat the DP fully kitted out.

Thoughts?