Dealing with a Daemon Prince

[Ether Dude]

The SGK still has the edge in that fight when you boost up his ward with an engine. We may even start to see more of the fencer blade/potion of strength combo, but maybe not since 1+ armor is all the rage these days.

Bear in mind, while the DP may be hard to hit etc, he's no match for the killy that is a vampire with red fury et al, since I don't think he has a source of rerolls for hitting or wounding. Since his points allowance is so low, I don't know how often you're going to see one with strength 7, I suspect it'll be s6 AP or plain old s6 more often than not.

"But he flies!"

So does the ghoul king.

"But he's got a flaming breath weapon!"

And you have vampire magic.

"But I hit him on 6s!"

With rerolls, wounding on 2s, -4 or -5 to his armor and forcing him to reroll his 5++. Those are better odds than you might believe. Trust me, I have played woodelves for too long to believe in the power of 6s to hit.

"He gets wounds back on a 6!"

So do you (admittedly at a lower frequency, but still). And you can heal yourself.

Because nurgle is all the rage right now, it's fair to point out that getting t6/7/8 with extra wounds is actually pretty easy. Even so, extra T isn't that much of an issue if you've got decent magic support (vampires/death/miasma), and screams of any flavor, he's still a lone character, and we've been getting good at dealing with those since the dark elf book.

 

[Vipoid]

Bear in mind, while the DP may be hard to hit etc, he's no match for the killy that is a vampire with red fury et al, since I don't think he has a source of rerolls for hitting or wounding. Since his points allowance is so low, I don't know how often you're going to see one with strength 7, I suspect it'll be s6 AP or plain old s6 more often than not.

A vampire lord, even with RF, quickblood etc., just won't be a match for him.

You hit him on 5s (thanks to MoN), and can't get rerolls because he's I8.

Even a Ghoul King with rerolls to hit will struggle when he only hits on 5s.

And, yes, the DP can get rerolls, thanks to Sword of Swift Slaying.

"But he flies!"

So does the ghoul king.

The Ghoul King needs to spend his Vampire Points to get wings (so he can have either RF or quickblood, but not both), whilst the DP gets his wings from a separate allocation. And, if you're looking to fight a DP, then you'll want both RF and quickblood, meaning you don't have enough points for the wings.

Furthermore, do you really not see any risk between flying a daemon prince around and flying a SGK around? With a GK, you're relying an awful lot on that 5+ regenerate, whilst the DP will generally have a 1+ or 2+ save, in addition to his 5+ ward (and additional wound).

Then, if the SGK dies, your entire army crumbles (which is easily enough to kill lone models such as the terrorghiest). And, your army's non-vampire units can never again march, so good luck outmanoeuvring your opponent. In contrast, what happens to WoC if the DP dies? Well... um... they potentially lose 1pt of Ld. Tragic. Truly the risks of flying both models alone are equal.

Finally, consider this - let's say you managed to engage the DP (or he engages you). What happens if you fail to wound him? (I'll get into the odds below, but let's just say it's not unlikely). He only needs to do 1-2 wounds to you, and (with no squad to protect you) you're dead from crumble. On the other hand, if you beat him, then he suffers no ill effects whatsoever.

I really can't see how you find these comparable.

"But I hit him on 6s!"
With rerolls, wounding on 2s, -4 or -5 to his armor and forcing him to reroll his 5++. Those are better odds than you might believe. Trust me, I have played woodelves for too long to believe in the power of 6s to hit.

6s? This deal is getting worse all the time...

I think you're overestimating the number of wounds you're likely to inflict.

Lets say you have a GK with this build:
Ogre Blade
OTS
Quickblood
RF
(some defensive items if you want)

Now, let's compare that to a DP with mark of nurgle:

If he has a 2+ save, then you're looking at 2 wounds (including RF), and even that is dicey.

If he has a 1+ save, then you're not even averaging 2 wounds.

And, for the record, a Vampire Lord with similar setup vs. a DP with MoN and a 2+ save is lucky to get a single wound.

I'm really not seeing how hitting on 6s has "better odds than I might believe."

"He gets wounds back on a 6!"

So do you (admittedly at a lower frequency, but still).

Only if by "lower frequency" you in fact mean "never". Which is, I suppose, about as low-frequency as you can get.

and you can heal yourself.

That's true, but very dependant on points and on lord. If you're using a SGK (and can't afford a MN), then there's little guarantee that you'll be able to get 1-2 spells off to heal yourself.

Furthermore, you can only try to heal your vampire/SGK once, for every 2 rounds of combat. If you end up on 1 wound at the end of your turn, then you probably won't even survive to your next magic phase.

Conversely, the DP can attempt to heal at the end of every round of combat.

Because nurgle is all the rage right now, it's fair to point out that getting t6/7/8 with extra wounds is actually pretty easy. Even so, extra T isn't that much of an issue if you've got decent magic support (vampires/death/miasma), and screams of any flavor, he's still a lone character, and we've been getting good at dealing with those since the dark elf book.

Well, the entire point of this thread was to discuss non-terrorghiest ways of killing said prince. Thing is, if he gets that extra toughness then it makes a massive difference. Wounding him on 2s with Ogre Blade is about the only advantage we have - if we start needing 3s, 4s or (God Forbid) 5s to wound him, then we've lost the fight. Furthermore, the spells that lower toughness are specific and uncommon. So, we have to have an appropriate caster, roll those spells on the table, and get them off every turn. Once he has his toughness, he doesn't need any further investment of resources, other than possibly blocking our spells. And, I'll remind you, if we're casting all these toughness-lowering spells (just to break even), then we're not healing our lord. He could simply let us lower his DP's toughness, and use all his power dice to keep our lord down on wounds.


I don't know, it just seems like you're being far to optimistic, with regard to us facing a DP without terrorghiests.

 

[eggsPR]

Here's a way to defeat a DP without TGs... Play comped warhammer. Bc in comped warhammer super DPs won't be allowed. Neither will double TGs be allowed.

Don't play comped warhammer? Then take double TGs hehe

 

[Vipoid]

Here's a way to defeat a DP without TGs... Play comped warhammer. Bc in comped warhammer super DPs won't be allowed. Neither will double TGs be allowed.

Don't play comped warhammer? Then take double TGs hehe

Heh.

I have to say, I'll be interested to see what the Comp restrictions are on DPs.

 

[Xivigg]

Would an increase Miasma help ? lowering Ws and I seem like a good way to hit on 4's with reroll to me ?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Any bebuff will help, or if you are really worried about the flying tank just take a Level 2 on metal and turn him into a puddle. I forgot how insanely good metal magic is against him

 

[Vipoid]

Any bebuff will help, or if you are really worried about the flying tank just take a Level 2 on metal and turn him into a puddle. I forgot how insanely good metal magic is against him

Hmmm, I hadn't considered the Lore of Metal. That could be interesting.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Johnnys way of killing the prince
1. Pick up 6 dice
2. Throw all 6 at boosted searing doom
3. Profit

 

[Vipoid]

Johnnys way of killing the prince
1. Pick up 6 dice
2. Throw all 6 at boosted searing doom
3. Profit

:lol:

I'm very tempted to give that one a try. I imagine the vampire will blow himself up in the process, but it sounds like a lot of fun.

I assume that you're referring to the 20+ cast of searing doom?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Yes sir the math works nicely
7 hits
6 wounds
2 saves
4 wounds go through
Dead prince

 

[Ether Dude]

...stuff...

I think you've spent too much time net-hammering if you're this doom and gloom about something as easy to deal with as a 5+ to hit 2+ to wound. Admittedly, maybe you're seeing something I'm not. Still, roll some dice and convince yourself.

The SGK has eternal hatred, right? Why would you give him asf?

A much more realistic expectation is that the DP will run away from your character and try to get soft points from ethereals and vargheists. Hence, give your SGK flying.

It's not 100% garauntee, I'll grant you, but it's far from the catastrophe that folks are making it out to be.

As for extra T/W, we have shadow magic, rerolls to wound from vampire magic, -s/t from death magic and a plethora of screams (enhanced by death magic).

If all else fails, wolf/zombie trap him.

 

[Vipoid]

I think you've spent too much time net-hammering if you're this doom and gloom about something as easy to deal with as a 5+ to hit 2+ to wound. Admittedly, maybe you're seeing something I'm not. Still, roll some dice and convince yourself.

Well, I didn't like the sound of the DP, from what I'd read.

However, having a DP with MoN (and very little else) take out my 500pt Vampire Lord in a single round of combat has not exactly emboldened me to be confident in my lord's ability to slay him.

The SGK has eternal hatred, right? Why would you give him asf?

So he strikes before the Daemon Prince?

A much more realistic expectation is that the DP will run away from your character and try to get soft points from ethereals and vargheists. Hence, give your SGK flying.

Why would it run away?

It's more than a match for just about any vampire/SKG build you can name. At worst, it *might* die eventually... whilst keeping the VL/SGK and his unit held up for most of the game.

At best it kills the lord, and possibly ends the game then and there.

But, even if the DP instead munches through all your support units (such as mortis engines), I fail to see why this is a good thing. o_o

And, in any case, remind me why you'd want your ghoul king to fly in terms of beating the DP?

It's not 100% garauntee, I'll grant you, but it's far from the catastrophe that folks are making it out to be.

I strongly disagree, but fair enough.

 

[rothgar13]

You can and should fear the Daemon Prince, in my opinion - apart from a TG sandwich (which he can avoid fairly easily, having flight and being able to pick them off the board in turn), there's really no way for VC to fight him efficiently. Also, Searing Doom does Flaming attacks, and the Daemon Prince has a 25-point gear allowance - say hi to the Dragonbane Gem! :tongue:

As a matter of fact, I'll go ahead and put my Daemon Prince build up here, so you guys can try and figure out how you'd go ahead and attack him:

Daemon Prince, Chaos Armor, Chaos Familiar, Charmed Shield, Daemonic Flight, Dragonbane Gem, Flaming Breath, L4 Wizard, Mark of Nurgle, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder, Sword of Striking [Lore of Death]

So, for the unitiated, here's the synopsis of what you're looking at:
M8/WS9/BS5/S6/T5/W4/I8/A5/Ld9 statline
Flight
Monster unit type
1+ armor save
5+ Ward save (2+ against flaming)
+1 to hit
-1 to hit him
Ignores the first hit made against him on a 2+
S4 Breath Weapon with Flaming once per game
5 spells from the Lore of Death, and +1 to channeling attempts
Rolls D6 for every unsaved Wound dealt (including Thunderstomps, thanks to the latest BRB FAQ); regains a Wound for every 6 rolled

Good luck!

 

[Adam_Barrow]

How viable is pushing Curse of Years on him? I know the spell shines on hordes because of the better odds at rolling 6s first round if you're throwing 40 dice, but i'm kinda grasping at straws. There's a tough WoC player around here.

 

[Ether Dude]

Pick a DP. Any one you want. Ben Curry posted his top 5, so that's where I'd encourage you to start looking. I'll put up a SGK that will take it apart or hold it for long enough for magic/banshees/mortis engines to come to the rescue and show you the math behind it.

As to OP, don't freak out. The DP is less hitty than a vampire lord and less tanky than a dreadlord on a peg. Just treat him like you do either of those characters. You may have to sacrifice a unit to get him into pitting position, but 40 zombies and he's out of the game. The chaos army has to come to you, so you're at a huge advantage in terms of setting up traps and denying easy-to-declare charges.

If you push it all forward he will take you off, but if you wanted that kind of game, buy ogres or demons.

 

[rothgar13]

40 Zeds won't last long against the build I posted above. Did you forget he has a Breath Weapon and Thunderstomps? And can cast Purple Sun? I also very much doubt you can make an SGK that can take that Daemon Prince on - a Vampire Lord I can see (put him on a Nightmare to dodge Thunderstomps and give him a 1+/4++ save combo to at least have a shot), but a Ghoul King? Come on. There's a reason he costs less points, and that reason is defense. The Daemon Prince is perfectly suited to swat him aside, and it might even happen before close combat is even joined.

@Adam_Barrow: Nope, Curse of Years won't do diddly to a Daemon Prince, or any other monster, really. You have to roll to wound him (you only get 1 die), he then gets his Ward save, and then he might get the Wound back through Soul Feeder. I would let people cast Curse of Years on him, because it's a waste of PD.

 

[Bullhax]

Pick a DP. Any one you want. Ben Curry posted his top 5, so that's where I'd encourage you to start looking. I'll put up a SGK that will take it apart or hold it for long enough for magic/banshees/mortis engines to come to the rescue and show you the math behind it.

As to OP, don't freak out. The DP is less hitty than a vampire lord and less tanky than a dreadlord on a peg. Just treat him like you do either of those characters. You may have to sacrifice a unit to get him into pitting position, but 40 zombies and he's out of the game. The chaos army has to come to you, so you're at a huge advantage in terms of setting up traps and denying easy-to-declare charges.

If you push it all forward he will take you off, but if you wanted that kind of game, buy ogres or demons.

I somewhat agree, but 40 zombies wont hold him all game at all..! Normal attacks 1d6 thunderstomp, 2d6 breath weapon + crumble two rounds without support... And with fly and no frenzy he can be all over the place so that unit you have to just sacrifice wont be a cheap one..

 

[Vipoid]

Pick a DP. Any one you want. Ben Curry posted his top 5, so that's where I'd encourage you to start looking. I'll put up a SGK that will take it apart or hold it for long enough for magic/banshees/mortis engines to come to the rescue and show you the math behind it.

Well, Rothgar already posted one...

We await your SGK to fight it.

As to OP, don't freak out. The DP is less hitty than a vampire lord and less tanky than a dreadlord on a peg.

Where exactly are you getting those from? It's hard to accept what you say when you don't actually back it up with anything. o.o

Just treat him like you do either of those characters.

Having not played against VCs, or a DE army with an unkillable lord, I'm open to suggestions on the "treat him like you would them" front.

You may have to sacrifice a unit to get him into pitting position, but 40 zombies and he's out of the game.

Um... again, I'm open to suggestions on how I get him to charge those 40 zombies. And, even if I do, I find your idea that they'll hold him all game laughably optimistic.

The chaos army has to come to you, so you're at a huge advantage in terms of setting up traps and denying easy-to-declare charges.

I'm afraid I can't see what you mean here. We're both close combat armies, with little to no shooting, so surely we'll be coming towards each other? Well, I guess we could both stay still and just glare at each other across the board but, frankly, that sounds far worse than losing to the DP.

If you push it all forward he will take you off, but if you wanted that kind of game, buy ogres or demons.

Again, whilst I understand the use of redirectors, chaff, etc., I still can't see why he needs to come to me, but I don't need to come to him.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Rothy the metal was for those who take a magic weapon. Personally I think yours is better but sword of swift slaying and such seem popular and if they stay that way I will tale those princes off every time. VC seem one of the few armies that struggle with him.... Well so do beasts and woodies but...

 

[Ether Dude]

You are correct, I retract the statement that the SGK is the answer. However, I stand by my statement that he's not that killy and can be tanked with minimal problem.

Vampire lord: barded nightmare (or a hellsteed if you're feeling frisky), night shroud, red fury, quick blood, beguile/dreadknight, ogre blade, seed of rebirth (assuming a pair of mortis engines). I see very few problems from Mr. Demon.

If you get snarky and tell me that the engines are too much, put the shroud on an adjacent character and give the vlord: dragon helm, talipres, steed, ogre blade and the OTS. That's probably a better build actually, but the logistics might be a bit harder to arrange.

Any way, the DP kills a maximum of 11 infantry a turn, and in all likelihood, that's going to be around 7 or 8, which is the average for a single invokation. Double crumble two rounds of combat blah blah blah, you're right. He'll get through them eventually. But are you seriously complaining about a 130 point zombie unit dieing over 2 turns to a 400 point beastie from the netherworld?

As for getting him to charge you, you don't really have to. You can charge him. Put something juicy out for him to charge, vargheists, mortis engine, wraiths, horrors whatever and behind it put your pit unit. Layers are critical here as you want him to charge, kill something and have to stand there or get run into by your pit.

I don't have much to say about 6 dice sun-spam. He can do it. It'll end the game. *shrug* Just make sure there's lots of zombies and dispel what you can. If he's standing off, just add some death magic of your own and have fun with that.

@ Vipoid, go look in the tactics section of this board, there's a bunch of stuff dealing with the flying doom bull, blood thirsters and unkillable peg lords.

 

[Vipoid]

Vampire lord: barded nightmare (or a hellsteed if you're feeling frisky), night shroud, red fury, quick blood, beguile/dreadknight, ogre blade, seed of rebirth (assuming a pair of mortis engines). I see very few problems from Mr. Demon.

Vampire lord: barded nightmare (or a hellsteed if you're feeling frisky), night shroud, red fury, quick blood, beguile/dreadknight, ogre blade, seed of rebirth (assuming a pair of mortis engines). I see very few problems from Mr. Demon.

I'm not sure I see this as being much better. In fact, I think I'd still favour the SGK - at least that get rerolls. The Vampire lord is still hitting on 5s, and isn't even averaging a single wound on Rothgar's DP build.

Any way, the DP kills a maximum of 11 infantry a turn, and in all likelihood, that's going to be around 7 or 8, which is the average for a single invokation. Double crumble two rounds of combat blah blah blah, you're right. He'll get through them eventually. But are you seriously complaining about a 130 point zombie unit dieing over 2 turns to a 400 point beastie from the netherworld?

Again though, even if your optimistic assertions (which don't include the breath weapon) are correct, how do you get the zombies into combat with him?

As for getting him to charge you, you don't really have to. You can charge him. Put something juicy out for him to charge, vargheists, mortis engine, wraiths, horrors whatever and behind it put your pit unit. Layers are critical here as you want him to charge, kill something and have to stand there or get run into by your pit.

This is the problem - your tactic seems to rely on the DP player being an idiot, and not seeing through such an obvious ploy.

Surely he'd be more inclined to charge other units, rather than the 'juicy' ones you place in front of him? I mean, DPs don't have frenzy, and can simply hop over units, so there's nothing forcing him to charge the unit right in front of him.

It seems he's more likely to go for a support unit or mage-bunker towards the back of your lines (where there is no unit in a position to launch a retaliatory charge). Alternatively, he could simply hop to the back of your lines, and set himself up to rear-charge any one of your back units.

And, don't forget that the rest of his army won't just sit back whilst you pin down the DP. You're tarpitting units might find themselves in combat with other units. They might also find themselves pinned between a unit of WoC, or marauders or somesuch, and a DP at their rear. Whichever you turn to face, you're going to get charged at both ends, and probably obliterated in a single turn.

Sorry, but I just don't buy this idea that a DP will practically walk into a unit of zombies (either by purposefully charging them, or by charging a small unit directly in front, thereby leaving himself open to an obvious counter-charge). It seems more like he'd avoid any potential tarpits, and instead focus on taking out any support units, bunkered mages etc. He could even go directly for your lord - with the intention of killing him, tarpitting the lord and his unit and/or pinning the unit in place, until another unit can charge it, and create devastating CR (since the VL/SGK is busy doing sod-all to the DP) .

 

[The Sun King]

Rothy the metal was for those who take a magic weapon. Personally I think yours is better but sword of swift slaying and such seem popular and if they stay that way I will tale those princes off every time. VC seem one of the few armies that struggle with him.... Well so do beasts and woodies but...

I haven't played against a DP yet so it might be easier said than done but is our hard counter to him not Screams? That seems pretty solid to me actually. But I might change my mind when I get a few games in against them.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Rothy the metal was for those who take a magic weapon. Personally I think yours is better but sword of swift slaying and such seem popular and if they stay that way I will tale those princes off every time. VC seem one of the few armies that struggle with him.... Well so do beasts and woodies but...

I haven't played against a DP yet so it might be easier said than done but is our hard counter to him not Screams? That seems pretty solid to me actually. But I might change my mind when I get a few games in against them.

It's his wings that concern me. A Tbat can fly circles around Crushers and scream to her heart's content, but a smart player using a Prince is going to position his forward arc to keep the TG in harm's way every time. An 8 inch scream is counting on at least getting beside the Prince to be in the flank arc for no charge. That seems like it's going to be difficult to pull off without slamming into him with another unit first--or more likely, trying to trick the Prince into charging into something first. But what's a juicier target for the Prince than the Tbat? Pretty much only a Vampire Lord, and that seems like a scary gambit.

 

[Yorga]

Ohhh yeah they're unbreakable. Balls.

He's still a demon and thus takes instability. So it should work.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Reread that yorga..... Retead....