Maybe do the 7 DW with a doom wolf and challenge him? He'll be stuck there long enough to get away or something to deal with him
Dealing with a Daemon Prince
- Thread starter Vipoid
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Vipoid said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but asf will always get a reroll vs als, correct? If not, the the nightshroud isn't that big a deal and you can swap it out for 40 points of gear.
Vipoid said:
It's not an optimistic asserition. The DP has 5 attacks. It stomps for 6, so it kills a maximum of 11 zombies. Assume 4 CR for the lil guys and you're losing 18 total. Not sure what's optimistic about a DP rolling perfectly.
Vipoid said:
No, it relies on contingency plans and me being a better player. It is essential that you don't give the DP any good charges. It's not even that hard to pull off, especially with an army where you can guarantee that things won't run away. What you're doing is leaving no good options, aside from stand on the sidelines and throw purple suns around.
If he wants the mage bunker, split up the mages, or just move them 1" behind your ghoul/crypthorror horde. Or, guess what your bait is going to be?
I can't seem to convince you to do anything but roll over, and you seem bound and determined to do just that. The above is what I have and will be trying out. You all might be right and I might need serious revisions to make it work. If that's the case I'll eat my words and try to find another way, but f*** me if I'm going to moan about the end of warhammer and go play demons to make myself feel better.
Ether Dude said:
Very well - I'll correct you.
ASF only gets rerolls if you have equal or higher initiative than your target. Since the DP has I8, and your VL has I7, you'll never get rerolls from quickblood.Well, you're free to suggest 40pts of alternate gear that will increase your average wounds against the aforementioned DP build.
Ether Dude said:
Well, you're assuming that it doesn't use it's breath weapon, and that another WoC unit doesn't join in to end the combat with overwhelming CR.
Ether Dude said:
I just don't see how you'd go about this. If the DP doesn't fly, then yeah, it would probably be simply. However, flight lets him hop over any obstacles, and basically charge anything he likes. I fail to see how you'd include enough tarpits to pin him down if he attacks *anything* in your army.
Ether Dude said:
How is putting them 1" behind your ghoul/crypt horror horde going to help? Surely he'll just fly over them, and rear-charge them the next turn. They certainly don't have the movement to escape him.
Ether Dude said:
Roll over? o.o
Is that a Warhammer term, or am I a dog now?
Ether Dude said:
Fair enough, sorry if I'm of a more cynical persuasion.
A mounted Wight King BSB with 1+ AS and Dawnstone will take 0.75 wounds per round of combat, meaning that you can realistically tie the DP up all game if you manage to get the charge off
Don't forget he doesn't roll on the eye of the gods table johnny he is already a deamon prince.
If the prince chooses lore of nurgle as well then he can be utter filth. He can get extra toughness and wounds by casting successful spells.
Using regen as a save well he might just have flaming attacks for the price of two skellies.
He is also 500 points minimum to make him utter filth. I don't see vc having many issues with the army that is suporting unless it has say 2 supporting chimerae with flaming, poison and a regen save.
I see having champs as useful. The dp has to challenge. So stick in a cheap wight king into a skellie block then he should be there for most of the game. As long as the majority of units are like this or chaff he is going to have a hard time. Debuff and tie up. Tie it up for one turn and then pile in cheap chaff and crap into the combat. As long As he only kills his points that's ok. His amazingness is the support he gives.
A
If the prince chooses lore of nurgle as well then he can be utter filth. He can get extra toughness and wounds by casting successful spells.
Using regen as a save well he might just have flaming attacks for the price of two skellies.
He is also 500 points minimum to make him utter filth. I don't see vc having many issues with the army that is suporting unless it has say 2 supporting chimerae with flaming, poison and a regen save.
I see having champs as useful. The dp has to challenge. So stick in a cheap wight king into a skellie block then he should be there for most of the game. As long as the majority of units are like this or chaff he is going to have a hard time. Debuff and tie up. Tie it up for one turn and then pile in cheap chaff and crap into the combat. As long As he only kills his points that's ok. His amazingness is the support he gives.
A
Adam_Barrow said:
True, but the difference is that the TG don't have to charge, it flies up to him(even behind him so he cannot see it) and scream at him... and he dies(fingers crossed).
Xivigg said:
In my opinion, yes, defiantly.
Not that I'd be eager to face a greater daemon, however, the DP just seems to have a lot of advantages over them:
1) Mark of Nurgle - this is possibly the best advantage, since -1 to hit for everything is a ludicrous bonus.
2) Unbreakable but not unstable - A greater daemon still has to be careful, since a bad roll could cause it wounds (especially if it's against a unit with banner, rank bonuses etc.). A DP can lose combat every turn, and will never take penalties.
Actually, it really annoys me that an unbreakable but not unstable Vampire is unfair (but justified by the fluff), yet an unbreakable DP is apparently completely fair.
3) Access to BRB items. It might only get 25pts, but access to the BRB items still gives it a massive variety of items, to deal with various builds and situations, compared to Greater Daemons' limited selection of Demonic Gifts.
4) It can heal. I've already said how annoying it is that the DP is allowed a 10pt heal, which is orders of magnitude better than anything Vampires have access to. But, this really is a huge advantage. With a Greater Daemon, every wound you do sticks. If you can damage him a bit with spells before combat, then you're all the more likely to be able to kill him - either by sending in a SGK, or simply by wearing him down.
However, the ability to reliably heal himself means that the DP can out-attrition us. Even if we wound him outside of combat, as soon as he gets into combat, he can immediately start regaining wounds. And, you can't even stop it by challenging with a SGK or VL or somesuch. He can still regain wounds by hurting you, whilst your The Hunger is utterly useless.
So, yeah, DPs concern me far more than greater daemons.
Don't forget his casting - most Greater Daemons that are scary in combat don't get that great a Lore to choose from. And I will point out that lobbing P-Suns at VC over and over hurts like the dickens.
To me, that guy has to be THE thing you fear as a VC player against WoC going forward.
To me, that guy has to be THE thing you fear as a VC player against WoC going forward.
Yes. Our Lords do not stand up in comparison. But our lords have one thing the DP does not have, the ability to join a unit and be free of cannon sniping. My own WoC list includes the nurgle DP. Would love to stick the 25 point Glittering Scales on him (so you always need 6s to hit him) but the presence of a large meta of Empire and Ogres (with their cannons) means I need to rely on the charmed shield.
So DPs will rule over Vampire Counts but suck big time against Empire, Dwarves or Ogres. Especially if the Ogre takes the Hellheart along with his two leadblasters.
Guys! Rock-Paper-Scissors. THAT is Warhammer.:tongue:
Think how the Skaven must feel. Their WLC are two random to count on hurting this thing. And He'll shred towers and aboms left and right.:grave: Moreover, the Monster Mash list doesn't give the Skaven a single target for their Dread 13th.
So DPs will rule over Vampire Counts but suck big time against Empire, Dwarves or Ogres. Especially if the Ogre takes the Hellheart along with his two leadblasters.
Guys! Rock-Paper-Scissors. THAT is Warhammer.:tongue:
Think how the Skaven must feel. Their WLC are two random to count on hurting this thing. And He'll shred towers and aboms left and right.:grave: Moreover, the Monster Mash list doesn't give the Skaven a single target for their Dread 13th.
The DP can hide behind a regenerating chimera or a tzeentch hero on a daemonic mount (giving him T5 and 3 wounds) with a 3++, rerolling 1's and then a charmed shield on the prince afterwards. Hopefully, the prince will be in combat on T2 
(yeah, I play WoC as well )
Edit: Is it foolproof against a cannon or 2? No, but it does give him a decent chance of surviving
(yeah, I play WoC as well )Edit: Is it foolproof against a cannon or 2? No, but it does give him a decent chance of surviving
Regen and 1+ armor beg to differ Johnny. You'll pop the Chariots just fine, but then again that wasn't what you were afraid of.
Each bolt does D6 wounds. You just got to fail one save and I would be running two wheels. Skaven just need to use some other toys besides the hpa. Hell globadiers will murder the prince
Johnny-Crass said:
No Johnny...you have an unreasonable fear of those. I got REAL lucky against your Grail Knights. Like the WLC it's strength is random on the lightning. Moreover, my Dragon Ogres love those things! Like Schwarzenegger said in Commando, "You're a funny guy Sully, I like you. That's why I'm going to kill you last."
So the problem here is.. we have something Unbreakable whos survivability lies in being hard to hit and has high AS with flaming attacks immunity (almost). If only there was something that didnt have to roll to hit and that ignored AS... Where are the Great Cannons when you need em : /. And how is a Daemon Prince not following the rules for Daemons anyway? He should be Unstable like the rest of em dammit! Is he from a "special" daemonic dimension?
On another note... WoC can get MoN and Glittering Scales on any of their characters no? I mean this opens up for a whole lot of shit :S talk about that BSB... not to mention normal Lords :S. I mean hitting something on 5s at best with 4+ ward and 1+ AS... are we forced to take Fencers and Pot of Strength if we want to compete with WoC Lords at all now?
On another note... WoC can get MoN and Glittering Scales on any of their characters no? I mean this opens up for a whole lot of shit :S talk about that BSB... not to mention normal Lords :S. I mean hitting something on 5s at best with 4+ ward and 1+ AS... are we forced to take Fencers and Pot of Strength if we want to compete with WoC Lords at all now?
Johnny-Crass said:
Your shooty army may rape me. And then there is still the problem with the nigh unkillable Destroyer, but I am pretty confident that my army could even kill Josh R's Skaven list. In fact, I would not be surprised to see him bring a different army this year with Chaos out now.
Swaiper said:
I agree.
Swaiper said:
Not sure why, but the other lords with glittering scales and MoN don't worry me as much. Might change my mind when I encounter one.
Also, Fencer's Blades + potion of strength would really worry me as a counter. I mean, that gives you just one turn of high-strength combat in the whole game, with which to kill the Lord. If you fail, then you'll spend the rest of the time bouncing off his armour.