dealing with my Friends death-star (empire)

[sabastionz]

Hey, I used to play this guy ever week and he used to kick my ass (I am not afraid of saying its because I was and might be still mediocre at warhammer) and its because of only one reason, his death-star. It consists of 10-15 knights, Kurt, sometimes Ludwig and a battle-priest.
I am going to be playing him again (if you have not guessed erv: ) and I was wondering if you have any tips? we are going to be playing wither 1500 or 2k (depending who shows up).

The best way that effected it before was a big unit of grave guard but unfortunately the reason I loose so many men to him is his massive combat res, this ends up me loosing more men to CR than the men themselves. I was thinking bog him down with over-spam of zombies (mainly a unit of 60 then have all my casters raise and raise (I normally take at-least one CC with ULS)

So, any tips?

 

[Corpse_Master]

Terrorgheist scream into his unit of knights? They are leadership 9 but you can do some serious damage. Or have hex wraiths ride through his unit of knights. This will ignore his high armor.

 

[Urzen96]

Forgive me if i say something stupid or outright impossible (im very new to VC and warhammer) but could you not take a vampire with Forbidden lore, and then choose metal? Tell me if im wrong, but that could work against heavily armed units.

 

[Thindol]

Lore of metal would work. That can really put a damper on Empire armies. It's an easy way to kill a Stank. Also I find grave guard t be very effective. If you use them in a horde with a vampire or two you will most certainly be able to win against his cavalry. At the very least pin it for a flank charge. A Vargulf into the flank can really ruin his day. Don't forget his knights, while they have AS of 1+ are also the same initiative of your grave guard. You both attack at the same time if you use HW and Shield. Put a Razor standard in there and you are golden.

You could also try redirecting his unit while you mop up the rest of the army. Avoiding it might be a good idea too.

 

[bigbadbat]

My first tip would be to avoid playing this guy in the future. Bringing that type of unit to a casual game of that size just isn't very nice.
I have never looked at the empire book, but how does he squeeze those 2 characters into that slot at that points level? (Im guessing their both lord level characters.)
But... If you insist.
There are several tactics to employ.
Corpsemaster hit the two obvious ones on the head.
With those characters in play its doubtful he has much magic, so running though him with a unit or two of hexwraiths is splendid.
Heck, fight cheese with cheese and run a unit of 10 through him.
You can't do this if their engaged, so use chaff to get him where you want him.
Im guessing a player like this probably fills the rest of points with cannons and machines so a TG might be iffy. Still a good option though.
Use AoDM or death magic to lower their leadership.
Any of the common SGK builds would do well.

 

[bigbadbat]

Sorry again for double post, having troubles with edit on phone.
A unit of Bloodknights with VL with RF, lance, OTS, nightshroud and beguile would probably wipe him on the charge. Make way to get those 2 characters in base contact with the nightshroud. Any BK can accept a challenge.

 

[Seneschal]

The best ideas have already been suggested. I would like to throw out the idea of using banshees backed up by AoDM for kicks.

 

[sabastionz]

Hey, thanks for all the feedback.

I personally would not go up against his unit with blood-k Because of Kurt's weapon (auto wounds and ignores AS) and he has 4 attacks and hits on 4s ouch and then double his CR IIRC.

I might go for the unit of hex-wraiths with a unit of GG (i still want to go GW as i will be wounding on 2s and if i get off wither re-roll hit or even wound he will be trouble.

Thanks again if you have any more tips dont hesitate to tell me (god knows i need them ).

 

[ATP485]

Lvl 4 Master Necro twins, one with Death and cursed book. Try and get a doom and darkness off to aid your screams.

 

[Lich Lord]

Nice agains army with deahstar and so also against the ogres is fielding a vampire lord with red fury, asf, heavy armor, shield, dragon helm, talisman of preservation, other's trickster's shard and SWORD OF ANTI HEROES. This will leave you striking first with 8 attacks at strength 8. Punching their armorsave on 6s and forcing them to reroll their ward saves means you will kill 8,5 knights in average before they can cut you 1 hair

 

[Yorga]

Terrorgheist scream into his unit of knights? They are leadership 9 but you can do some serious damage. Or have hex wraiths ride through his unit of knights. This will ignore his high armor.

Dual Terrorgheist parked off his flanks. He'll lose an appreciable amount of knights. But forget the Hexwraiths. They are absolute poo-poo in h-t-h combat and you will almost NEVER get off a run through which is the only way they can dish out some damage. If only the target didn't have to be an 'unengaged' unit. That would be sweet and make HexWraiths worthwhile.

 

[Demian]

I'd recommend two things against this particular Death Star. They work even if you haven't tailored a list to beat him:

1. Kill the Battle Standard Bearer. That flag that doubles CR is for BSB only, if I'm not mistaken. If he is hiding behind the first rank (due to having 2 other characters in the front, most likely being a combat lord and a Priest), then there are a couple of things to do: Death-snipe him with Soul Leech before entering combat. If you are already in combat, use your Vampire's ASF to take down the Champion of the Unit. Then, when he steps up, direct all other attacks to him. He will only have Armour Save and 2 Wounds (because of the Magical banner).

2. Accept challenges with your champion. If no challenge is issued, you do it (with the champion). Always get your combat VL/SGK to chew rank & file models, but be sure to remove any magical weapon's Str bonus with Nightshroud (if you wear it) or Beguile Kurt. You can choose your formation prior to receiving a charge by reforming, so that you can choose who's in BTB with who and get the most of it.

Black Knights, Grave Guard and even lots of skeletons can win that combat, and magic aside, 2 combat characters or Monster combo charges can win you that combat.

 

[Yorga]

I'd recommend two things against this particular Death Star. They work even if you haven't tailored a list to beat him:

1. Kill the Battle Standard Bearer. That flag that doubles CR is for BSB only, if I'm not mistaken. If he is hiding behind the first rank (due to having 2 other characters in the front, most likely being a combat lord and a Priest), then there are a couple of things to do: Death-snipe him with Soul Leech before entering combat. If you are already in combat, use your Vampire's ASF to take down the Champion of the Unit. Then, when he steps up, direct all other attacks to him. He will only have Armour Save and 2 Wounds (because of the Magical banner).

In my limited experience with fighting mounted Empire, you have to devoted so many attacks against the BSB in order to insure you overcome his 1+ armor save that you basically throw combat resolution to the wind and lose big time. I know, his armor save is no better than the others but how many attacks do you designate if want to -make sure- he dies?

 

[Bismark]

I just throw Wind of Death at my local empire player.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Have a strong 30 strong GG unit set, have it as you're death star if you like, it does not matter provided you have GW.
Then have a CC behind to buff the ASF to nullify you're ASL from the GW and then ram a unit of 2 bat swarms into his rear giving him ASL and laugh as you're GG rip through him.

If you take the unit as a fear bomb deathstar you should also have fun, really provided you hit him first and hit him hard you are laughing.
You're losses are replaceable, his are not.
Make sure you kill the priest however, he will be a royal pain and it will get rid of his wards.

A challenge from a unhitable vampire against Helborg is also amusing.
Try as he may passing a Leadership 5 test is not easy.

 

[I-Spy]

Don't mean to sound like an idiot but how is 10 knights a deathstar, even with Kurt who only has a 2+ also what knights are they?

 

[Vectra]

call it a deathstar or not. 10-15 knights are no problem, but with two characters in there they become a real threat. the above mentioned ideas are all good, except that i always play a fixed list regardless of opponent (this assumes that the opponent do not know who he is going to face either ofc). if you do not tailor the list, you will probably have to redirect and delay the unit with wolves, bats or the like. you probably cant kill it. GG with great weapons can inflict some serious damage obviously, but they are also very expensive, and you would need a lot of them since you will strike last.

 

[The Sun King]

What is in the rest of his list? In 1500 I would assume that Kurt is all his lord choices and Ludwig all his Hero choices but I might be mistaken? If that is the case, well then you have the tactical upperhand, he has parked alot of points in a unit that is pretty easily countered as all the above posts show.

I wonder if curse of years might be good? Unless he somehow squeezed in a battle wizard lord he would have a hard time countering it and it could really soften up the unit. Don't know if I've been lucky but I've utterly massacred Empire players with that spell.

As I see it Vampire Counts big advantage is that we can hold our ground and we just keep on coming... empire deathstar does not. Every wound you land on that unit will hurt his chances of winning. You might go cheese and take 3 Banshees, they have pretty good movement so they should be able to be nearby when his bus arrives. Put them in the unit he is about to charge and watch him suffer.

 

[Mikael.K]

L3/4 master necro, 2 level 1 death necros for snipes, big unit of crypt horrors, as big GG unit (with gs´s) as you can get, mortis engine and minimum core. Take the charge with horrors and flank with GG. Use wolves and the like to keep other units out.

 

[bonesaww666]

Use hounds as speed bums and let him charge he overruns into next wolves then you charge w/Crypt Horrors.
Conga line your wolves if you have to, just keep the charge lane clear! Sure it sounds lame but so does this guys list.

ME is a must IMO and rule the magic phase with an ignorant and iron fist!
Lv.2's Raising with only 2 PD no problem this way.
His sword ignore AS not Regen, GG his flank negating steadfast and suggest he roll for anal circumference.

 

[Retech]

What do you meen by this list being "lame" the fact of the matter is that I have played 22 games using this list and won 21 of them, so how by definition is it "lame"??? and for the record i dont use kurt i use karl (when points allow) and never use ludwig but the unit does contain a warrior priest

 

[Retech]

Steadfast isn't negated by flank charges only rank bonuses, and two ranks including the front is hardly being steadfast.

 

[Matt217th]

I've not got my Empire army book on me, but I believe Ludwig has to be the Battle standard bearer, so therefore would be on the front rank. Do as other people have suggested and aim as many attacks as possible at him. You may lose turn 1 of the combat and likely kill him, but turn 2 should be yours.