Got to agree here. Did not move up or down in the power scale but moved more towards the left. IE it encourages more than one build and does not have the bog standard cookie cutter items of the last book (Puppet Warshrine Discdick)
Dear Johnny
- Thread starter Johnny-Crass
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Johnny-Crass said:
I think...they made it a no brainer to include the big gribblies.. (monsterous cav/monsterous inf, chimeras, chariots..etc.) But GW's sales scheme is far from transparent.
Armies will have fewer model counts but will cost more money if you are a new player. Powerwise, I'd have to see them in execution. At first glance our Vampires seemed a bit nerfed but players quickly found some killer builds.
I think it would be cool to throw a sorcerer lord on a disc as your general built with Rothgar's details and have NO other charcaters saving those points for the wonderful troop choices available.
I got my money on the rise of the Nurgle Prince. Just something about him seems very powerful (unbreakable being hit on 6's says what)
Yorga said:Johnny-Crass said:
I think...they made it a no brainer to include the big gribblies.. (monsterous cav/monsterous inf, chimeras, chariots..etc.) But GW's sales scheme is far from transparent.
Armies will have fewer model counts but will cost more money if you are a new player. Powerwise, I'd have to see them in execution. At first glance our Vampires seemed a bit nerfed but players quickly found some killer builds.
I think it would be cool to throw a sorcerer lord on a disc as your general built with Rothgar's details and have NO other charcaters saving those points for the wonderful troop choices available.
Just the way I like it! Less characters and more monsters/fun stuff
Also that Demon Prince is going to be abused till people puke up a counter.
Thing is he can take charmed shield and wings which means his main counter (Senior Cannon) will only have one round of shooting at him. Though unless the Prince as MON our Vampire Lord will take him apart as will Greater Daemons and Destroyers
Not to mention that Lore of Tzeentch is rather lackluster this time around, whereas Nurgle is solid and the Daemon Prince can also cast Lore of Death instead. I'm with Johnny as a charter member of the Nurgle Daemon Prince fan club - anything that can take Blender Lords head-on (and believe me, the Nurgle one can) has my respect. I do think some folks will take their Tzeentch Disc Lords for old times' sake/not wanting to buy a new model, though.
From a couple of cursory looks at the book, these are the list types I predict to see going forward:
1. Monster mash - Daemon Prince of Doom(tm), 2 Chimeras, Skullcrushers or Hellcannons, Chariots, and just enough infantry to fill out minimum Core. Low on the model count, but blazing fast and it brings the pain (think VC Scream list).
2. Nurgle spam - That mark is amazing (combat benefits similar to those of Khorne, minus the ability to be Frenzy-baited and the chance of losing your buff if you get beat in combat), and I expect people to be milking it for what it's worth. Warriors, Knights, and Chaos Ogres form the core of this army, with other elements added to taste. Obviously, the Daemon Prince of Doom(tm) is here too.
3. Leadership bomb - More or less the same as before - 2 Hellcannons, lots of Terror-causing stuff, a mage that can slap on Ld debuffs, make stuff run off the board (that last part is not terribly relevant against the Undead, but direct hits from those Hellcannons suck). Here, you can either opt for the Daemon Prince of Doom(tm) and Lore of Death, or that fancy pants Disc Sorcerer Lord casting Treason of Tzeentch to turn your enemy's Ld bubble off.
4. Warshrine fishing - I'm not much of a fan of this list, but something about having a 7% or so chance of a unit champ turning into a Daemon Prince per roll on the EotG chart has the WoC community rather interested in fielding a couple Warshrines and an MMU-style layout (lots of units, lots of champs) to maximize their odds at it.
You'll notice that Horde lists are absent from this, and that's not accidental - I think the days of WoC as an army that fielded Hordes are dead and gone. That said, this is a heck of a lot more variety than what you saw from WoC until now, so change is good.
From a couple of cursory looks at the book, these are the list types I predict to see going forward:
1. Monster mash - Daemon Prince of Doom(tm), 2 Chimeras, Skullcrushers or Hellcannons, Chariots, and just enough infantry to fill out minimum Core. Low on the model count, but blazing fast and it brings the pain (think VC Scream list).
2. Nurgle spam - That mark is amazing (combat benefits similar to those of Khorne, minus the ability to be Frenzy-baited and the chance of losing your buff if you get beat in combat), and I expect people to be milking it for what it's worth. Warriors, Knights, and Chaos Ogres form the core of this army, with other elements added to taste. Obviously, the Daemon Prince of Doom(tm) is here too.
3. Leadership bomb - More or less the same as before - 2 Hellcannons, lots of Terror-causing stuff, a mage that can slap on Ld debuffs, make stuff run off the board (that last part is not terribly relevant against the Undead, but direct hits from those Hellcannons suck). Here, you can either opt for the Daemon Prince of Doom(tm) and Lore of Death, or that fancy pants Disc Sorcerer Lord casting Treason of Tzeentch to turn your enemy's Ld bubble off.
4. Warshrine fishing - I'm not much of a fan of this list, but something about having a 7% or so chance of a unit champ turning into a Daemon Prince per roll on the EotG chart has the WoC community rather interested in fielding a couple Warshrines and an MMU-style layout (lots of units, lots of champs) to maximize their odds at it.
You'll notice that Horde lists are absent from this, and that's not accidental - I think the days of WoC as an army that fielded Hordes are dead and gone. That said, this is a heck of a lot more variety than what you saw from WoC until now, so change is good.
As I've said a couple of days back my bet is also on the Daemon Prince, but also on Chariots(as Core... yeah pretty wicked), Chimeras and maybe even some MI(trolls or ogres), Hellstriders also seems to have potential at ruling the flanks. My feel though is that one of the big problems with WoC now is lack of cheap stuff... still have those lovely hounds though, fiends are also pretty viable.
Think Throgg with a prince caster trolls as core and chimera filling special will be where it is at
Yeah, The Troll King for president! Also Festus is still rock solid, can easily see people fielding block of Nurgle Warriors with him as anvils.
More and more tournament warhammer I play this season the more I realize points denial units are king.
Swaiper said:
yup thats a young woody (?!?) allen. ..
no wait. Harellson
in cheersEdit
r natural born killers. whatever you prefer, sunny 
Dear Johnny,
Haven't seen the new WoC book yet,but I hear the hellcannon got decent.
Does it find a home in Chaos Dwarf lists?
Im playing tonight at my LGC, and I'll peruse it, but value your opinion.
Haven't seen the new WoC book yet,but I hear the hellcannon got decent.
Does it find a home in Chaos Dwarf lists?
Im playing tonight at my LGC, and I'll peruse it, but value your opinion.
Yes it just got better but we still get it for cheap (205 thanks to our book) So there is no reason not to take it unless you are taking a Siege Giant and a Destroyer like me!
Who doesn't bring a destroyer? I've been elbow deep in green stuff doing mine.
My bud has a hellcannon, im picking it up tonight. Gotta love artillery/scatter rerolls!
My bud has a hellcannon, im picking it up tonight. Gotta love artillery/scatter rerolls!
The Dreadquake is what I am starting to fall in love with atleast on paper. But it means I have to drop either the giant or the destroyer both of which are too good to loose
Dear Johnny, in my endeavours with WoC I am always challenged by his uber Lord. I tried using nightshroud once on a Necromancer that was next to my Lord but he told me that in challenges nothing can interfere... he drew a picture of the units standing in a circle around the 2 lords fighting to explain it... is this really true?
Nope that is not true in the least. Ask him to show you in the rule book where that is stated.
BBB the dreadquake is good because it forces a unit to stop moving and with the addition of ashsyorm you can imobilize two units which is huge
BBB the dreadquake is good because it forces a unit to stop moving and with the addition of ashsyorm you can imobilize two units which is huge
Johnny-Crass said:
Holy cow Batman! This thread moves fast. I might have a couple/few double posts coming. You guys are so prolific in your reponses. :lol:
Johnny, my son would kill your charmed shield demon prince on turn 1 or two (depending if you moved first) with his Dwarves. Handgunners would nuetralize the charmed shield and two cannons would end his day. If they fail...there is his secondary battery of organ guns...:slapface:
Organ Guns won't do much to a Daemon Prince. They wound on a 4+ and have to get through his 1+ armor save and the 5+ Ward. And if you make the mistake of concentrating all the fire on him (which you have to if you want any chance of killing him, and thus stop him from lobbing Purple Suns up and down your lines to vaporize the whole Dwarf army), you let the Chimeras and Skullcrushers and Chariots and Warriors march up unmolested. If WoC gets T1, Dwarfs are in deep, deep trouble. If they don't, that Cannon is going to have to get through Trolls, Skullcrushers, and/or Chimeras just to hit the Daemon Prince, and by Warriors turn 2 he's in combat if he's alive, fishing for 6s to regain any Wounds taken along the way. Dwarfs v. WoC is not looking good for the stunties nowadays at all.
rothgar13 said:
I agree that Tzeentch magic (because of Warpflame) is bullocks now.
rothgar13 said:
Rothgar...no infantry is needed. Chariots and dogs man. That's what I am currently building.
As to the rest of your points, I agree. I was playing nurgle last year when my friends were playing super ward Tzeentch warriors. Of course that was when my horde of nurgle warriors could take the banner of rage and throw out more attacks than I owned dice. 
erv: But they are still great. Just not in horde formations anymore. Did the math. 30 warriors with MON and full command use to be 540 points. Now 570 points under new scheme. But....since characters are cheaper one might be able to absorb those extra 30 points and still put the same model count onto the table. However, the super reduction of points for Chaos Orges and giving us the Ogre Charge almost begs us to use different troops now.