Dear Johnny

[rothgar13]

The Marauders being split is a rather big deal, actually. It changes the playstyle of the list dramatically, especially because the MoN unit isn't ItP like the Slaanesh one is (also, that Mark is a waste on that sort of unit). 20-man squads essentially act as beefier-than-average chaff units and flankers, because they cost next to nothing and can be sacrificed in order to set up a favorable combat for your big boy blocks. The Horde of Marauders is supposed to be a give-and-take combat unit that mixes it up with enemy blocks and wears them down by weight of numbers and massed S5 attacks. Very different roles on the battlefield.

 

[Swaiper]

Could you whip up a counter list for VC against those Warriors johnny? id be really interested in seeing one to get some ideas PLEASE!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Oh yea I have been at work. Will work on one for yaherv:

 

[rothgar13]

There are two general things VC do well that Warriors don't like, and those are screams (because of their generally low body count and reliance on armor) and characters that can chew through elite infantry (ditto). Combine that with some numbers to bog them down, a couple of mobile chaff units/Ethereals to hold up and annoy, and you should be set.

 

[Yorga]

I disagree about warriors too. I'd place them above High Elves. I would place Dwarves above Tomb Kings. Dwarves aren't meant to fight. They are meant to shoot the crap out of you and then 'clean up'. :lol:

 

[TobiasRathein]

Completey agree with Yorga and Rothgar on this one.

 

[Bounce]

Warriors can be tough to beat for some armies but I think they often lack tactical maneuverability due to having a few slow units. Yeah they have warhounds and marauders but often just 1-2 units easily taken out and then several big blocks of infantry. That being said I have been flattened by them several times because I just can't take out those big infantry blocks and their characters>my characters.
Played them with my vampires for the first time and bam it was the other way around my Vamp Lord just went on a a rampage and slaughtered half the army. Ethereal wraiths made the chariots look like jokes. Zombies tarpitted like tarpits. Easiest game I have ever won.

Dwarves suffer the same problem as warriors with lack of movement but can take shooting instead of magic. For vampires that shooting is not much of a concern. Woo your cannon killed 3 zombies!! But when playing High Elves, Dark Elves and Orcs- Dwarves were hellishly hard to play as i would lose half my army before even reaching combat.

 

[TobiasRathein]

Warriors do not have a very good matchup against VC. The vampire lord alone is usually more than enough to conquer their entire army. If a WoC player wants to win, he must avoid the blender lord at all costs.

 

[Yorga]

We thrive against warriors for the reasons stated above and their lack of shooting. Terrorghiest, Zombie dragons, Coven thrones, and even black coaches do wonders against most warrior units (save maybe the horde formations). But all those things go down fast versus a dwarf army with a couple/three cannons. Even a Hellblaster can remove half your black knights on a good roll and maybe get you down far enough to cannon snipe your lord.

 

[Chaos_Born]

I think I would contest the point that dwarf shooting is ineffectual against vampires. 3 runed up grudge throwers will wreck any army's day. Fortunately we have access to some very good fast stuff, so we aren't getting pelted for too long

 

[rothgar13]

In that case, it depends how committed the Dwarf player is to shooting you up. If he goes really heavy on the shots, it can be a bit problematic, but in general you can heal up most of what they do to you.

 

[Yorga]

In that case, it depends how committed the Dwarf player is to shooting you up. If he goes really heavy on the shots, it can be a bit problematic, but in general you can heal up most of what they do to you.

Dwarves have the ability to shoot the heck out of our elite and expensive units and have the ability to shut down the magic phase (multiple dispel scrolls). They can't be put at the bottom of the list. I would stick Wood Elves down there. Followed by Orcs and Goblins.

 

[Gatti]

Must say, I agree with Yorga and Rothgar here. Warriors are much higher than you have here. Great core access (cheap GWs or multi-attack S5/4+ save warriors), good special selections (chaos knight bus, chosen star), a really strong warmachine/monster (hellcannon), and a buff cart (warshrine). In characters they have solid mages that can't be handled like most mages, great lores and items such as the puppet (can be devastating, particularly when combined with lore of tzeentch, specifically pandemonium). Sure, you can just dispel pandemonium, but that suddenly weakens your magic phase dramatically and means you are much less likely to get off an important spell. They can also run an unkillable lord on disc (T5, 1+/3++ save, stubborn). They have a surprisingly versatile army book. Only problem is that so many people are dead-set on the chosenstar that few other builds are used. I'd actually argue that the other builds are better, if only because the chosenstar can be so easily countered.

As for dwarves, I seriously think that is because you haven't faced many good dwarves. Dwarves are hard to use, but so are WEs. If you rank them higher based on what a "good" player can do, I think the dwarves deserve a chance too. One of my most common dwarf opponents I play on universalbattle pretty regularly named ShadowMage on that site. Hes a solid dwarf player (top dwarf in Malta, 6th overall). If you want to see what a dwarf can do, show up and play him on the site. He is easily the best player I have ever seen play (this is including all people whos BRs I have read on various sites). If you want a challenge, come on the site and play him. I think it would seriously cause you to change your perspective of dwarves.

 

[rothgar13]

In that case, it depends how committed the Dwarf player is to shooting you up. If he goes really heavy on the shots, it can be a bit problematic, but in general you can heal up most of what they do to you.

Dwarves have the ability to shoot the heck out of our elite and expensive units and have the ability to shut down the magic phase (multiple dispel scrolls). They can't be put at the bottom of the list. I would stick Wood Elves down there. Followed by Orcs and Goblins.

Well yeah, I wouldn't consider them bottom-of-the-barrel, that's WE and O&G all the way. It is a limited army, though, so I would have them at or around the bottom third of the list.

 

[Swaiper]

Do units with frenzy have to charge ethereal units? the obvious answer is yes but I felt I still have to ask. and how do you use ethereal units against the deadly chariots when he can just pick em off like ducks with signature tzeentch and fire lore : / ahh if you could put magic res on ethereal units.... and also this lord that conquests his whole army. what does that it look like?

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Yupp they have to charge the closest enemy unit

 

[Yorga]

Yupp they have to charge the closest enemy unit

Did they change the frenzy rule? It has always been that if the unit is in range of a potential charge they must declare one. But I have never read where it must be the 'closest' target. I think it only has to be a viable target.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Yupp they have to charge the closest enemy unit

Did they change the frenzy rule? It has always been that if the unit is in range of a potential charge they must declare one. But I have never read where it must be the 'closest' target. I think it only has to be a viable target.

Yorga you disappoint me

Page 70 third paragraph
"If the LD test is failed the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against the nearest viable unit."

 

[bigbadbat]

Yep. When frenzied you must charge any viable target, you can test to restrain but if you fail you must charge the nearest enemy unit.

 

[Chaos_Born]

Yeah I think they changed it from 7th-8th edition. The way it works now makes baiting them much easier

 

[rothgar13]

With the caveat that they get a Ld test to resist, but yeah, Frenzy is a bit of a mixed blessing. It's too bad they couldn't give Animosity the same love - now that special rule is potentially crippling.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I've seen a block of Orcs turn 90 degrees and charge a unit of Vargheists I had firmly landed behind their charge arc to eat some Doom Divers the following turn. Animosity has it's perks.

Edit:
Of course, in that same battle half the OnG line stood still for two turns while they argued over how best to cook a Night Goblin--sauteed in Magic Mushrooms won the day.

 

[Gatti]

Bigbadbat is right. No LD test is needed if you are declaring a charge with them, and that declared charge can be against any viable target. If charging no one though, and you fail your restrain test, then the nearest unit is charged.

So it actually isn't that easy to bait frenzied units. I find its actually quite easy to control for vargheists. Blood knights are much more difficult though (lack of flying, no quick reform, etc). Honestly, the only part about frenzy I actively dislike is the forced overrun even if the enemy is destroyed. I guess there has to be some downside.

That said, I love facing frenzied hordes. In one game, I moved a small unit of zombies up, in position to look like i was trying to redirect his marauder horde to buy time. He took the bait, overran out of range of BSB or general... and gave me a lovely flank charge with a unit of 50 zombies. I won combat on static CR (3 ranks, banner, charge, flank vs he had 3 kills from 6 attacks), he ran, and I caught him. Beautiful!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Besides Organ Guns dwarf warmachines are overpriced. Yes they are strong but that is why any good list has target saturation. Why are you spending turns out of combat against dwarves at all. You should be marching every single turn straight in their grill, if they charge you big whoop dwarfs are garbage in CC.

Unless I am playing my Tomb Kings or he has double Organ and a Anvil I know I will win my games atleast 15-5 against dwarves.

 

[Gatti]

Play a good dwarf player. You will be surprised. I am not saying you couldn't win, but I am just saying a good dwarf would push you much more than you think. The player I'm talking about tabled a cheesed-out chaos dwarf list last weekend. His only loss was when his hammerers failed to kill a solo fiend and overrun into another unit, and he then failed a LD 10 re rollable panic test which sent his lord off the board... so not necessarily a well balanced loss. I think you are underestimating them, and I think you haven't actually played a dwarf player who fully understands how to optimize them.

As you said, you can't just consider the units available in 1 v 1 match-ups (the reason you put WE higher than some armies). It is about how the units tie in. Sure, ironbreakers can't kill anything, but they can easily win on static combat resolution. a 5-wide unit of dwarfs can be set up to have 2 characters with 1+ re rollable armor saves that are immune to KB and poison taking up 3 of the models in the front rank (one on shieldbearers, and lord cannot be hit with anything higher than S5... anything at higher strength directed towards him is automatically lowered to S5.. which when combined with his T5 and 1+ re rollable armor, hes nigh unkillable, particularly in a unit of hammerers). This combo denys a huge chunk of combat resolution for the attackers (remember, champ in front rank too, so 3 models of the attackers are in base to base with the dwarf rank and file models max). They can get T5 unbreakable redirectors for 50 pts (solo dragonslayers). They can get a few GTs at S4 or S5 with re rolls for all artillery dice. Their cannon's can re roll misfires with a cheap rune. And organ guns are organ guns. The anvil can be game-changing, particularly when combined with miners, who can then come on and charge in the same turn. Not to mention they can shut down any magic phase out there that isn't from dark elves, with up to +4 DD AND 3 dispel runes can fit on a single runepriest. Remember, VC don't get re rolls either unless you cast a spell, which dwarfs have the capacity to shut down easily. They can also take characters with a flaming weapon, so they swing first and remove regen, BUT if charged with a unit or model with a 2+ vs fire, the rest of the unit does not have flaming attacks. Consequently, its a much better counter to regeneration than the banner of eternal flame. They have tools to deal with anything if you know where to look for them.

As I said, if you want to see what they can do, come on universalbattle.com and play shadowmage's dwarfs with one of your all-comers lists. Maybe you will win, but I think it will be harder than you think. Consider it a challenge.