Death Star of bust?!

[Kuwanger23]

I have been reading a lot of people's lists in these forums and all the ones that are labeled competitive are death star cav lists and usually contain double terrorgeists. Is it not legitimate to run blocks of skellys anymore and use magic to debuff properly? Or is death star the only competitive way to play this army?

 

[Alabaster427]

Death stars aren't absolutely necessary. I just came from a tourney where I ran a GG Death star. Everyone I played focused it right away, especially with shooters. Throughout the whole tournament, the GG deathstar only killed like three units worth less than 1000 points total. However, I also ran four units of Wolves that killed about 2000 points worth of units throughout the tourney; they even wounded a Daemon spider monster thing. Make some other lists without restricting them to the models that you actually have. Find a good list, then get what you need.

 

[Olethros70]

There are more options, Kuwanger23, just not popular.

Me, for instance, have a very good ratio of victories based on three units only (BRB minimum), trying to win outnumbering the enemy at middle and long term, forgeting about redirectors, keeping the line and the units together, looking for Close Combat asap with two handed weapon Grave Guards and Standard of Barrows in one flank and protected by the one side edge of the game board if needed, close to them zombies in the middle with vampires using Nehek to raise Grave Guards if ranged casualties or to rise more zombis, accepting no challenges, and then a third unit in the other flank of different size and composition depending on the army points. The army points will define number of heroes, objects and stuff either.

Sounds simple. It is, in fact, but it works most of the times.

Sounds easy to beat, but is not. At all.

Maybe boring for some players, but I would call it effective instead.

If you want to know more, you can check the post https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Having-a-hard-time-enjoying-the-Vampires?highlight=hard+time and review an example of 1.000 points with a very limited range of miniatures following this strategy.

 

[heldantes]

Every time I've used anything other than a fast black knight death star list (and I don't think it needs to be a death star list - but I think it needs to be built on speed) it's been a struggle and boring. I want to get into combat ASAP! Also, in my experience so far:

Against dwarfs: getting shot at for 2 turns before attacking something sucks. However with a fast list as soon as you're in combat you're safe, at least from shooting

Skaven: dreaded 13th doesn't work against cavalry so...

Chaos: everything is so tough the strength 6 on the charge is essential, and a tooled up vampire or TGs are our biggest hope of taking down skullcrushers, daemon princes or, actually, most of their stuff!

High Elves: the 2 plus armour save helps a lot. With the elves' ASF they will often kill so many in CC that crumbling kicks in, but with their weak strength will struggle to kill BKs easily.

Orcs and goblins: again getting into combat quick to avoid magic.

I mean, the above is why the bus is in my experience competitive, and if you know all your friends are bringing the tooled up, cheesey, forum produced lists, then I think the way to go.*

However from reading these forums, the only other list that looks really competitive and non bus is 2 mortise engines, crypt horrors and GG.

*I like these sorts of lists, but I think it's important to mix it up. In my head I'm giving myself a handicap when instead of my usual list I'll bring a zombie dragon Lord. ..which of course I regret immediately when a hellcannon or cannon shoots it down turn 1.

 

[Ripper]

In the current meta in the group I'm playing in, at 2500 points, in order to have a CHANCE of winning you must bring

2 terrorgheists 450
a blender lord ~ 350
a lvl 4 necromancerwith lore of death and a 4++ 245
a lvl 1 necromancer with the black periapt 110
625 pts worth of core 625
_____________

1780

that leaves you with 720 points you actually get to choose and a LOT of that has to go to hero level characters so that your units don't just bleed combat res and dissolve. Probably 400ish points has to go to heros here, on top of the necromancer in the list above who is a must as well.

So really you're getting like 300ish points to actually choose.

It's a bummer, but that's what competitive groups are like. It's the same for every army. They're all a basic framework that's been proven to be the best possible set up and then a few toys suited to that player's playstyle or preference.

I would like to run a more fun list, but you just can't do it. It's not fun if the other person is just brining the absolute best stuff and you're trying to run something fluffy or flavourful because everything you try gets blocked and you have no way of blocking their combos at all. I have 20 black knights and would like to use them, but I like my grave guard so...

 

[Kingside_Bishop]

I think the flavour of 8th edition is the competitiveness of death stars...? I'm just glad I play in a fairly non competitive environment. I had a great game against beastmen the other day!

 

[Kuwanger23]

This is mostly unfortunate news. I come from the generation where my 25-30 man block of skellys would auto break a dwarf unit if I won by 1 so I am spoiled for sure. I have always played VC's and WoC and enjoyed them both for different reasons. I do have a few concerns about VC's however:

Are these units viable in a competitive environment: Black Coach, Blood knights, Wraith units, Vargeist, hex wraiths, block core for fighting (mainly skellys)?

Because in my Chaos book I have a lot of versatile options. Sure there is the super tough DP and the blood crushers but over all you have wiggle room if you are good player. I was hoping that was the case for VCs. I do not enjoy playing an army that is limited. I have just recently started up a fantasy group in my area again and there is only about 4 of us that have been playing for years. I am just coming back into this edition myself. I was hoping to play WoC and VC's as they have always been my fav. I am sure in a non tournament setting that taking the not obvious choices will work fine. I have seen my friend win several tournaments with VC's taking the not obvious choices. I was just hoping that with lore of shadow and a corpse cart that Skellys could actually hold the lines and maybe even kill things. And I was thinking of running a coven throne at times as well because that model is amazing.

I was also thinking of stacking some regen with some mortis engines. Does their blasphemous tome stack for +4? It doesn't seem to read that way. And I know I ahve heard people say it is really dangerous to take but I think the idea is to throw 2 dice and 3 at most when getting a +6 casting with your lv 4. But then again I am only theory crafting as I have only had about 5 games with my WoC thus far in this edition.

Thanks again for all the replies guys. We have amazing models and I really want to paint them. But if VC's are stale in terms of viable options I am not sure I will be able to.

 

[heldantes]

Actually, with Lore of Shadows and a corpse cart, I'd say our basic infantry are able to be as dangerous as any other, more so because of how cheap they are and being unbreakable. The only problem is magic is a very hit or miss reliance. However, if you get mind razor off on any unit (as long as it has a hero or something to boost LD -if that's how it works...or do they use their base LD?) then that's going to win nearly any combat. Equally, as far as my dwarf playing friend is concerned, pit of shades is the most broken spell in the game.

I would say there are ways to make many VC combinations competitive. Black Coaches, Blood Knights and Hexwraiths especially to name the ones you listed I've seen people on here rave about.

However, for an All Comers list I'd say you're more sure to have a competitive list with the bus and Lord. But every army has a "yeah that's a super powerful combination..but this and that still work okay as well".

 

[Ripper]

The problem with the black knight bus is, if your opponent is smart, he will ignore all your other spells and just focus on stopping the Invocation and then your black knights lose their best ability: fast resurrection.

Anyone with artillery and dispel dice is going to dissolve that unit quickly and start focusing fire on your vamp lord.

 

[heldantes]

That is true. I have actually told those in my meta the same thing but fortunately they fear the TG so much, and also with enough dire wolves, the speed of the bus, and some bats you can usually get safely into combat before too much damage occurs. The key for a really successful bk bus in my opinion is having enough useless drops like 20 zombies to ensure you can place your bus, TG and whatever else to face the exact unit you want to crush first - likely the mage unit.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

In the current meta in the group I'm playing in, at 2500 points, in order to have a CHANCE of winning you must bring

2 terrorgheists 450
a blender lord ~ 350
a lvl 4 necromancerwith lore of death and a 4++ 245
a lvl 1 necromancer with the black periapt 110
625 pts worth of core 625
_____________

1780

that leaves you with 720 points you actually get to choose and a LOT of that has to go to hero level characters so that your units don't just bleed combat res and dissolve. Probably 400ish points has to go to heros here, on top of the necromancer in the list above who is a must as well.

So really you're getting like 300ish points to actually choose.

It's a bummer, but that's what competitive groups are like. It's the same for every army. They're all a basic framework that's been proven to be the best possible set up and then a few toys suited to that player's playstyle or preference.

I would like to run a more fun list, but you just can't do it. It's not fun if the other person is just brining the absolute best stuff and you're trying to run something fluffy or flavourful because everything you try gets blocked and you have no way of blocking their combos at all. I have 20 black knights and would like to use them, but I like my grave guard so...

Black Periapt is 55 points, so it doesn't fit on a level 1...

 

[Ripper]

In the current meta in the group I'm playing in, at 2500 points, in order to have a CHANCE of winning you must bring

2 terrorgheists 450
a blender lord ~ 350
a lvl 4 necromancerwith lore of death and a 4++ 245
a lvl 1 necromancer with the black periapt 110
625 pts worth of core 625
_____________

1780

that leaves you with 720 points you actually get to choose and a LOT of that has to go to hero level characters so that your units don't just bleed combat res and dissolve. Probably 400ish points has to go to heros here, on top of the necromancer in the list above who is a must as well.

So really you're getting like 300ish points to actually choose.

It's a bummer, but that's what competitive groups are like. It's the same for every army. They're all a basic framework that's been proven to be the best possible set up and then a few toys suited to that player's playstyle or preference.

I would like to run a more fun list, but you just can't do it. It's not fun if the other person is just brining the absolute best stuff and you're trying to run something fluffy or flavourful because everything you try gets blocked and you have no way of blocking their combos at all. I have 20 black knights and would like to use them, but I like my grave guard so...

Black Periapt is 55 points, so it doesn't fit on a level 1...

Oops. I've been charging myself 45.

 

[Kingside_Bishop]

Yeah I forget who on here said it, but making the Black Periapt less than 55 points would make it an auto-include for necromancers in pretty much every list. Which I guess is why it's 55...

 

[Ripper]

Yeah I forget who on here said it, but making the Black Periapt less than 55 points would make it an auto-include for necromancers in pretty much every list. Which I guess is why it's 55...

It's still an auto-include. And as I play more and more games with VC, I'm starting to think, even at 75 points, and even with it making a blender lord impossible, I'm starting to think Master of the Dark Arts may be as well...

 

[LifeEnder]

Are these units viable in a competitive environment: Black Coach, Blood knights, Wraith units, Vargeist, hex wraiths, block core for fighting (mainly skellys)?

Kind of depends on what your environment bringsi would say, altough overall i can give you my point of view (swedish player):
Black Coach = more cool that good. Can do alot of hurt with the impact hits when you get to lvl 3-4 on the buffchart but it still is a chariot. impact hits then what? 2 horses and a cairn wraith.. sure it has good AS and Ward and it got high T. BUT its still gonna crumble against most units in following turns, and it is to expensive for me really. 200pts for a chariot that is kind of "meeeh..." that comes from rare-allowence? no TY.

Blood knights = Cool, fast, vampiric and insane s7 on charge and lots of attacks.. Good right? IF not for a few (big) disadvantages.. Frenzy with ld7 = you will most likely charge of on something you dont want to 50% of the time, the other 50 you will most likely be blocked by chaff and then have to overrun into oblivion. Would still have been viable but 50pts for t4 model with 1 wound a only 2+ AS? nope.
That being said, they can still be good, IF they dont get chaffed off or shot down, 1 charge of s7 ws5 vamps will hurt most things...

wraith units = really expensive and also kind of slow.. Can be murderous against some armies, but anything magical will wreck them hard. So for a competetive environment i would say no, but i mean thats just from my perspective

Vargheist = Fast, cheap, lots of attacks BUT frenzy. Altough this unit i really like, being flyers you can avoid the frenzy test by some good positioning, just make sure to keep unwanted targets out of sight (and make sure they cant charge you), then following turn fly 20" and position yourself facing the target of your choice!

Hexies = Ethereal fast cav that autohits s5 flaming no AS when you move through enemies? yes please! Really like this unit, some good movement and they are great, just be carful of those magic attacks and magic missiles..

Skellies as fighters? well that depends on what you want them to do in a game. Putting Lords and expensive vamps in zombies? no ty! i would say skellies for Lord+vamp bunkers, zombies for tarpitting/necro bunkers, wolfes for chaffing away the opponent and then ghouls for some delicious poison against monsters and the like...


Phew, that was longer than intended, but to sum it up:
Death star = most competetive choice all around, but not a must.
Skellie delivering system = lord+chars in a 40+ skellies 5man wide, with the right army setup and playstyle can be pretty competitive aswell! Blender + herovamps/WK, ME and/or a terror, 40skellies, 2-3units of wolfes, 2zombie units, Crypt horrors, fell bats, CC and then some ethereals is really nice! If your comp allows it go for some banshees, etherealwall skellies with a lord dishing out dmg supported by 3-4 miniscreams? as terrifying as it sounds!

My point of view,
Cheers

 

[RarerMonsters]

So, Black Knight buses have just become entirely unplayable thanks to the new Wood Elf Book, since Waywatchers can now ignore armor saves with shots, and this is among a multitude of other options their book packs to handle armor.

The meta is about to change entirely, and so I'd say the black knight bus is no longer a safe place to put 1200 or so points of our army.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

You can only fit so many waywatchers into 2,500 points. Less than 30 if I'm not mistaken, and only if you take NO other rare choices. On top of that they still have to hit, then they still have to wound. It's mean, but not a meta changer.

 

[RarerMonsters]

You can comfortably fit 20 and have enough for a treeman or any other rare choice you want. And with BS 5, hitting is not a problem. And with access to Lore of Shadow, the Withering will be a constant threat.

Also, core Glade Guard can fire armor piercing poison shots.

And, if a Black Knight bus dies, we lose. Period.

People can try this out on their own, but I think you'll see the power of the Wood Elves as soon as you get up against a few solid players adjusting to the new book.

 

[Kingside_Bishop]

It's only fair tbh... Having a BK bus against a wood elves player was almost an autowin up until last week. Besides, I'm sure they'll be like any other new hotness -- damn scary at first, but we'll work it out. :konrad:

 

[Demian]

Plus you need to remember that there is only 1 deathstar model we have, and he is called "his/her Majesty, Vampire Lord/Lady of (insert your zone here)"

The Bk bus is just a bus, and extra protection from shooting and maybe some added CR. Terrprgheists are a necessity. Poisoned arrows are very dangerous to them, so you can always use something else!

Varghulf?

Vargheist death squad? (6+ models)

Black Coach agains skirmishers?

Blood Knights... yesh! Blood Knights! get all of them if you must! 5+ models, so what!? 2x Terrorgheists cost even more!

15 Black Knights... that's right. Why stop at 10 when 15 can take quite a beating and you can still raise them up? (I know, this kinda takes my point away... but let us remember deathstars are made for you to play with them and only they can kill. 15 Bk's can be scary, but not 3-Vampires-in-my-unit scary)

Anyways, place your vampires where you think they'll damage the most and watch things melt. Skeletons, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Blood Knights... Go for Dire Wolves if you like!

 

[Bounce]

I think due to the expensiveness and essentiality of the vampire lord and needing bigger units to deal with crumble it is hard to avoid a death star unit with Vamps.
I tend to take a vamp lord and back up vamp in a block of 40 skellies. Already 900+ points packed in there over 1/3 of the army.

I don't think terrorghiests and black knights are essential. I came 2nd at a tournament last year without them.

 

[Burnanation]

I have never been a fan of a deathstar.

When I've tried them in my list, it's usually not a win for me.

Having started as a Beastmen player (back in the glory days of 360 movement for skirmishers), I want my army so flexible it's fluid.

Deathstars remove a measure of that flexibility. I feel too limited in my tactics.

Placing a Vampire in a BK bus removes my favorite part of the BK, ethereal movement.

Someone told me early on, focus on one or two phases to dominate, and that will win you games. I almost always focus on the movement phase, which in turn let's me pick the units to engage in CC. 2 phases dominated by focusing on one. Deathstar has nothing to do with it.

 

[Minam]

I have little experience and I'm wondering.

If the death star is so common in competitiv lists, why a vampire death star would be better than another army death star ?

Is the VC the most death star oriented army of WHFB ?

What are the counter strategies of a death star ?
I see a more expensive DS, a lucky lvl 4 sorcerer or maybe a tarpit (but it might be too slow)

 

[Burnanation]

The biggest advantage that a VC deathstar has over any other is it's ability to restore fallen warriors.

 

[RarerMonsters]

Honestly "Deathstar" is one of the most overused terms in Fantasy.
A true deathstar is usually about 1500+ points, designed such that it is nearly impossible to defeat without the aid of a Unit-Deletion spell or similar deathstar and nearly impossible to win without defeating it.

A black knight bus is a really strong unit, but it's not a deathstar because so much of our points will still be tied up in core, and at best the unit packs about 15 wounds with no exceptional saves.

As for VC, we tend to have some really big expensive blocks by virtue of a VL being about 500 points. Once 2 characters are in a block, even skeletons end up about 1000+ points.