Dhampir

[Crimson]

A Dhampir is a creature within Balkan Folklore, being the offspring of a Male Vampire and a Human Female, which has all of the powers of the Father without the weaknesses. Is it possible for such a Vampiric creature to exist within Warhammer, as truly we don't know if male Vampires can't get it up for a want of a better phrase.

Your thoughts?

 

[Meier Lenk]

i think it possible, and i certainly hope it is, considering the direction im fluffing my grave gaurd
if i remember rightly in the last von carstein book, manfred has a small passel of what amounted to concubines? 2 or 3 woman and a man, and he gave the man the blood kiss?

 

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

I would say no; there is alot of stress in the latest incarnation especially on how vampires are 'essentially dead,' its in the description of Vampire in the bestiary part of the army book.

It mentions how they have to exert effort into maintaining their appearance, because they are essentially walking corpses, and the only way they can replenish this energy is through drinking blood/drawing in dark magic. Otherwise, their appearance degrades and they are shown up for the rotting, decrepit corpses that they truly are. This idea is further reinforced in the story in the army book where the vampire countess covers herself with rosepetal water or something, because it masks the smell of death and rot that accompanies her.

As the living dead, or walking corpses, vampires really shouldn't be able to get hard-ons! All other bodily functions cease, and any breathing they undertake would be purely habitual and completely unecessary, so why should they still get erections?

Just my thoughts, anyway.

TPL

 

[Apocryphus]

I would say no; there is alot of stress in the latest incarnation especially on how vampires are 'essentially dead,' its in the description of Vampire in the bestiary part of the army book.

It mentions how they have to exert effort into maintaining their appearance, because they are essentially walking corpses, and the only way they can replenish this energy is through drinking blood/drawing in dark magic. Otherwise, their appearance degrades and they are shown up for the rotting, decrepit corpses that they truly are. This idea is further reinforced in the story in the army book where the vampire countess covers herself with rosepetal water or something, because it masks the smell of death and rot that accompanies her.

As the living dead, or walking corpses, vampires really shouldn't be able to get hard-ons! All other bodily functions cease, and any breathing they undertake would be purely habitual and completely unecessary, so why should they still get erections?

Just my thoughts, anyway.

TPL

I agree. I think what makes the warhammer setting vampire such an attractive prospect is its lack of beauty. It moves away from the romanticized idiom of the Victorian pomp vampire and more into that of the monstrous creature that stalks the night to sustain its decadent craving. It just seems a bit off to me that a dead man's sperm might yet be living. Keeping a mortal guise is done solely for the sake of getting close to one's target, other than that, it might as well be a hindrance; a waste of energy better spent sinking one's fangs into his enemies. It seems to me that procreation would be a similar waste of energy, and something of a paradox, considering the act of procreating would be, in this case, being done by a dead man, and while the humor isn't lost on me, I find myself wondering why.

It is written in the Army book, however, that the creation of ghoul's began with the drinking of Nagash's blood, if I'm not mistaken (the book's upstairs, currently). Perhaps your vampire found a badly weathered page of one of Nagash's texts, detailing the creation of ghouls and decided to modify the ritual a bit, taking pregnant women to his lair and, in dark blood sacrifices, killing them, while binding their unborn children to him, with his own blood, in a limbo between life and death. Using necromancy, he might keep the corpses of their mother's pumping his blood into the children as they incubate, finally being birthed as an abomination to life, when he could then train them.

In that scenario, your vampire has created a crew of extremely impressionable, and more importantly, intelligent, specialized troops to fill out his forces, and all of them are ripe to be conditioned in any way he might choose. Who cares if he didn't bone down to make 'em, they're still half vampires, and you're using established fluff to tie them into the setting, which shows people that you put alot of effort into the hobby.

 

[Meier Lenk]

technically the sperm would be unliving

and the way i see it, a sub race of vampires, weaker than even the weakest full vampire, but also less vulnerable to the problems of vampires, would be an ideal intermediary. perhaps they cant change shape, control weather and lack most those other wonderful cliche's and abilities the kings of unlife have. but all the same, they could be harder, better faster and stronger than the normal human. i dont think its that much of a stretch to supposse that someone like Vlad or Manfredd(?), bent on the domination of man rather than its anihilation, would try and create a half breed through the usual means, assisted by dark magic or some twisted alchemies along the way.

 

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

Reminds me of my old army theme in which the vampires dwelled in Black Water, and were to an extent quite amphibious. As a means of resurrecting their fallen kind, every ten years, on the fell night of Geheimesnacht (sp) the vampires' sire, Matthim, would take the bones of those fallen in the past decade, wrap them each in a bundle of still-warm flesh, place inside each bundle a dead heart and wrap them each up.

The order of degenerate vampires would then chant a ritual, and at its pinnacle, the unclean hearts within the sacks of flesh would begin to beat, and after an extended period of incubation, in which the fleshy sacks placed in an ancient chamber at the bottom of their ancestral lake, the resurrected vampires would burst forth from their 'womb' reborn.

It is obviously different to your dilemma in that these vampires are only being resurrected, not procreated, but at the same time you can see the attention to detail and the imagery that has gone into making their rebirths link image-wise to the idea of a baby being born and growing and then emerging...

TPL

 

[Apocryphus]

technically the sperm would be unliving

and the way i see it, a sub race of vampires, weaker than even the weakest full vampire, but also less vulnerable to the problems of vampires, would be an ideal intermediary. perhaps they cant change shape, control weather and lack most those other wonderful cliche's and abilities the kings of unlife have. but all the same, they could be harder, better faster and stronger than the normal human. i dont think its that much of a stretch to supposse that someone like Vlad or Manfredd(?), bent on the domination of man rather than its anihilation, would try and create a half breed through the usual means, assisted by dark magic or some twisted alchemies along the way.

I dunno, I'd think a mortal with the promise of immortality dangling in front of his nose would be a much more qualified emissary than a creature that already has it. Mortals would be much more expendable than dhampirs as well. I wouldn't call it a stretch to have them made, I'd just wonder what the point would be when the vampire lord could be better spending his resources dominating humanity.

I'd also wonder what kind of trauma a thing like death would have on a vampire's reproductive system, even once he's been blessed with undeath. I can just hear the ovaries screaming, "The shambling horde approaches!"

 

[Meier Lenk]

the way i see it, a normal mortal is more corruptible by temporal power. the thing i see in vampires, even the von carsteins, is that they have a considerably different viewpoint on power, what it entails and so on. a human intermediary would get overawed by pretty clothes, jewellry and the granduer his position entails. also-human lives are by nature far shorter, so they move faster. kinda like why human necromancers in the old army book could get to magic level 4, but the vamp lords only 3. essentially, dhampir' would think in a similar way to a vampire, and have their longevity and some of their powers, but be far more visible in the day to day sense, this would (imo) make them more trustworthy in the eyes of their subjects, because they arent quite as "other" as a full vampire is; whereas vampires, who as a rule dont show much understanding of humans; the way they think and live and so on, will need someone who they can understand on a mental level at least partly.

it is said that there is no chasm wider than that between the heart of man and woman; the difference between the human and vampire is similar in my mind. to continue with the metaphor, love is supposedly the bridge between man and woman. so could the dhampir be something of a bridge between vampire and human

and i lol at the imagery

 

[Apocryphus]

the way i see it, a normal mortal is more corruptible by temporal power. the thing i see in vampires, even the von carsteins, is that they have a considerably different viewpoint on power, what it entails and so on. a human intermediary would get overawed by pretty clothes, jewellry and the granduer his position entails. also-human lives are by nature far shorter, so they move faster. kinda like why human necromancers in the old army book could get to magic level 4, but the vamp lords only 3. essentially, dhampir' would think in a similar way to a vampire, and have their longevity and some of their powers, but be far more visible in the day to day sense, this would (imo) make them more trustworthy in the eyes of their subjects, because they arent quite as "other" as a full vampire is; whereas vampires, who as a rule dont show much understanding of humans; the way they think and live and so on, will need someone who they can understand on a mental level at least partly.

it is said that there is no chasm wider than that between the heart of man and woman; the difference between the human and vampire is similar in my mind. to continue with the metaphor, love is supposedly the bridge between man and woman. so could the dhampir be something of a bridge between vampire and human

and i lol at the imagery

And what's to maintain the dhampir's loyalty? I think the benefit of having a human servant is that they are so squishy. That means if they turn on you, they are effortlessly dispatched by the creatures of the night. A stupid human might be over-awed by the gaudy trinkets that come with vampiric servitude, but an intelligent person would realize very quickly that, while the gold and the jewels are nice, the ominous shadow of death still looms over them, should he fail his master. The temporal power is just as constricting as a set of manacles and the only release is loyalty. Betrayal is met with death or continued servitude to the countenance of another vampire.

The reward for the mortal for those years of service is to be given the dark gift of vampirism. The dhampir on the other hand has absolutely nothing to look forward to; enslaved for eternity to its master. Granted, they may look at power differently, but they still aspire to gain power. A dhampir is born into a life where there is no elevation in personal wealth or power, no chance for gain. Why would it stay there? What is keeping it loyal? You could say necromantic ritual, bind it with magic, but you could do the same to any man and still give him more of an incentive to keep him faithful to you.

In any event, I believe the progeny of a vampire, as stated in the Liber Necris, becomes another vampire and I've yet to read anything on half bloods. They were bad mamma jammas in the White Wolf pen and paper games (V:TM, not that filthy travesty V:TR). I don't know if they even exist in the WHFB plot, at least not in the more contemporary "bow chikah bow wow" representation of their origins, which is why I suggested a necromantic ritual instead of copulation.

 

[Meier Lenk]

even the cleverest human gets stupid and greedy at times. and power corrupts etc...he might just get a bit big for his boots. and something thats at best a pale shadow of a vamp in terms of power (like i see dhampir') is still real squishy

and there are plenty of occasions in wfb where humans have squished vampires. hell afaik only 2 of the known bloodline leaders still survive afaik, and imagine the scale of power theyd have compared to even a human hero? even nagash himself was put fown by some upstart conan fanboy XD

and in addition, id personally see it as less of an effort (though maybe less enjoyable) in ensuring the loyatly of one semi undead freak, than having to go through the rigmarole of breaking a human into servitude every coupla' decades. id much rather keep business and pleasure seperate, which is why i dont work at gw or any gaming store XD

 

[Nialag]

Going to have to say no.

One thing I LOVE about Warhammer Fantasy is the absolutely lack of the "Half-*whatever*" crap that plagues most fantasy games. No half-dragons, no half-demons, no half-elves or half-orcs or half-ogres. I swear, I've never read a story or partook in RP where a half-thing character was even remotely interesting. I consider no half-vampires a continuation of this theme.

Really, there's so many other options when it comes to having a good lackey for a vampire. Having a half-vampire just cheapens things. Not to mention, it humanizes vampires, which is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Meier Lenk]

the humanisation would be the whole point behind the endeavor

and as a rule id agree with you, hal orcs and elves and gnomes are the worst things ever to come outta d20 systems (and their bad enough to begin with) but dhampirs are already part of the mythology of vampires, and there a part that are being left out of warhammer

 

[Apocryphus]

Dhampir are a Balkan part of the vampire myth. The Balkan vampire theme revolved almost exclusively around sex and the more carnal and predatory male nature. As this is not the case with Warhammer, vampires being depicted as creatures that, while once human, are now wholly removed from the human experience becoming altogether more alien, the presence of a dhampir would not make any real sense in the story. So, as a piece of folklore derived entirely from sex, I'm still going to have to lean toward the negative. That is not to say that you haven't put quite alot of thought into this, and I applaud you for that, I'm just not a fan of a WHFB dhampir, conceptually.

 

[Nialag]

the humanisation would be the whole point behind the endeavor

Why? They aren't human, nor are they supposed to be. At best they're very good mimics of the darker traits of humanity, lusting for power or wealth or fame. At worst, they're rotting corpses driven by their horrific thirst.

They are essentially incapable of seeing past their own desires. Not unwilling, incapable. The Dark Magic that drives them purges or perverts any good traits the mortal may have had upon becoming a vampire. Any code of honor, morals, or ethics the Vampire may have believed in before death can be maintained, but only through sheer force of habit, or because it benefits the Vampire in some way.

What I love about the Warhammer Vampire is that it's much less a tragic figure compared to other fantasy settings. There's no Vampire with a heart of gold, who only feeds on the willing and never ever kills anyone and dances with fairies. The very magic that sustains them is evil, and there is no escaping the nature of it's taint. The most heroic act a vampire can commit is self-destruction.

By the way, Meier, I love Vampire Hunter D.

Essentially, Warhammer Vampires are evil badasses. Let's not subject them to Badass Decay.

 

[Meier Lenk]

hehe. D does indeed kick ass-though if i hadnt learned more about dhampir' id be calling them dunpeal cos of the silly translations hehe

but there is always a black sheep amongst the throng...though im not sure the von carstein books are actual canon, weve got a goody two shoes in jerek

 

[Raziel]

the humanisation would be the whole point behind the endeavor

Why? They aren't human, nor are they supposed to be. At best they're very good mimics of the darker traits of humanity, lusting for power or wealth or fame. At worst, they're rotting corpses driven by their horrific thirst.

They are essentially incapable of seeing past their own desires. Not unwilling, incapable. The Dark Magic that drives them purges or perverts any good traits the mortal may have had upon becoming a vampire. Any code of honor, morals, or ethics the Vampire may have believed in before death can be maintained, but only through sheer force of habit, or because it benefits the Vampire in some way.

What I love about the Warhammer Vampire is that it's much less a tragic figure compared to other fantasy settings. There's no Vampire with a heart of gold, who only feeds on the willing and never ever kills anyone and dances with fairies. The very magic that sustains them is evil, and there is no escaping the nature of it's taint. The most heroic act a vampire can commit is self-destruction.

By the way, Meier, I love Vampire Hunter D.

Essentially, Warhammer Vampires are evil badasses. Let's not subject them to Badass Decay.

The Genevieve books would like to argue that point with you.

 

[Nialag]

the humanisation would be the whole point behind the endeavor

Why? They aren't human, nor are they supposed to be. At best they're very good mimics of the darker traits of humanity, lusting for power or wealth or fame. At worst, they're rotting corpses driven by their horrific thirst.

They are essentially incapable of seeing past their own desires. Not unwilling, incapable. The Dark Magic that drives them purges or perverts any good traits the mortal may have had upon becoming a vampire. Any code of honor, morals, or ethics the Vampire may have believed in before death can be maintained, but only through sheer force of habit, or because it benefits the Vampire in some way.

What I love about the Warhammer Vampire is that it's much less a tragic figure compared to other fantasy settings. There's no Vampire with a heart of gold, who only feeds on the willing and never ever kills anyone and dances with fairies. The very magic that sustains them is evil, and there is no escaping the nature of it's taint. The most heroic act a vampire can commit is self-destruction.

By the way, Meier, I love Vampire Hunter D.

Essentially, Warhammer Vampires are evil badasses. Let's not subject them to Badass Decay.

The Genevieve books would like to argue that point with you.

Yes, and Star Wars novels try to tell me that Chewie died by getting crushed by a moon, and that the Borg invaded the New Republic.

Any Cash Cow Franchise will have it's own EU type of things that are usually "official" but not really "canon." At best, they truly DO expand the universe while keeping to the original flavor that makes the IP what it is. At worst, though, it's just glorified fanfiction. Not all EU material is out and out bad, Timothy Zahn is an excellent author and I enjoyed his books. Unfortunately, he's more the exception than the rule, and Star Wars books (along with the vast majority of big franchise novels) tend to just be whatever that author wanted to right, but set in his favorite universe. Whether or not it FIT in said universe was irrelevant, they want to write it in.

Thus, I tend to accept very little in the Warhammer universe as canon. Stuff in the army and rule books are in, of course. The old Annals and WD would count as well. So, Felix and Gotrek are canon, as they make a cameo in the Vampire Army book, and have models out. (I'm actually using an older Felix for a vampire :-D) So, until I see Genevieve get some kind of mention in WHFB somewhere instead of a novel, she goes in the "crazy EU stuff" folder.

 

[Raziel]

There's been mentions of both Drachenels and the league of Karl Franz in WD, both of which were first mentioned in the Genevieve books AFAIK. That and BL is run by Alan Merritt who's been with GW from the start of Warhammer and who checks each novel being released to make sure it stays with te fluff, so mis to be considered cannon.

 

[Raven Sorrowsong]

As the living dead, or walking corpses, vampires really shouldn't be able to get hard-ons! All other bodily functions cease, and any breathing they undertake would be purely habitual and completely unecessary, so why should they still get erections?

Just my thoughts, anyway.

TPL

Well, at the same time vampires are typically depicted as beings of desire and jealousy across most every vampire myth, my view on it would be that vampires would be able to back up the promises of lust and power they throw around.
Also, biologically, getting it up is mostly to do with blood flow... so if a vampires fed recently, I could see them as being quite full of life.

 

[Apocryphus]

There's been mentions of both Drachenels and the league of Karl Franz in WD, both of which were first mentioned in the Genevieve books AFAIK. That and BL is run by Alan Merritt who's been with GW from the start of Warhammer and who checks each novel being released to make sure it stays with te fluff, so mis to be considered cannon.

Actually, GW has stated that BL books are not canon. There have been enough discrepancies with the books and the game fluff to warrant that statement. So, it really doesn't matter that the guy running BL has been around since Warhammer released. The company, as its run now, has said the books aren't official canon.

 

[Nialag]

As the living dead, or walking corpses, vampires really shouldn't be able to get hard-ons! All other bodily functions cease, and any breathing they undertake would be purely habitual and completely unecessary, so why should they still get erections?

Just my thoughts, anyway.

TPL

Well, at the same time vampires are typically depicted as beings of desire and jealousy across most every vampire myth, my view on it would be that vampires would be able to back up the promises of lust and power they throw around.
Also, biologically, getting it up is mostly to do with blood flow... so if a vampires fed recently, I could see them as being quite full of life.

There's more to reproducing than getting it up. Even if we accept that a vampire can orgasm, they'd have to have sperm inside them that could fertilize a woman (or have an egg that can be fertilized). Maybe if a Vampire slept with someone JUST after they had been embraced...but even then, I'd say it'd just be an ordinary child. I don't think being made into a vampire gives you super-sperm.

Actually, GW has stated that BL books are not canon. There have been enough discrepancies with the books and the game fluff to warrant that statement. So, it really doesn't matter that the guy running BL has been around since Warhammer released. The company, as its run now, has said the books aren't official canon.

Yup.

 

[Raven Sorrowsong]

Well, everything else about a vampire is super, so why not? jk.
I see your point, in all honesty, the reason I'd say that at least some vampires would be able to reproduce is that in most vampire lore, GW or not, the topic of producing Dhampir is either not brought up... or it needs special circumstances.
Typically the view on vampirism is that when one feeds you take in more than the victims blood, the blood is typically just a medium for the energy/life/mana/chi whatever it is vampires really need in the lore you're looking at. Once the vampire takes that in their body rejuvenates itself. In some lores when the body, for a few hours, functions almost the same as it did in life, which I can understand because your bodily functions often times continue on for a while after you die, likely because of the loss of nutrients from lack of blood flow (I sincerely doubt that anyone would test this for me). Once that flows restored I wouldn't be surprised if everything "turns back on" when food and energy is abundant, and maybe goes dormant as it becomes scarce. Anyway, avoiding the biology discussion, as applying biological theory is quite silly (though entertaining, I will admit).
Another requirement that I've seen in lore for an undead mother is that she must feed regularly for a period of time to get the plumbing going again, and continue to feed throughout the pregnancy less the uterus shut down in favor of other bodily functions. Dead babies, not cool when they're inside of you. Even more uncool when the plumbing's shut down. *insert baby weight joke here*
Another lore about dhampir I've seen is that only incredibly old/powerful vampires with significant control over there body can accomplish this, and even then it's only a male father.
I've also seen lore that says that vampires can have sex the same as the living, but they can't conceive without the aid of a ritual (that requires the sacrifice of an elf, a dwarf, a human, and a winged creature). Though I'd imagine this would quite kill the mood, for the human partner at least.

Anywho, as far as the fluff in the armybook, I haven't quite read all of it, but it seems as though they haven't changed much as far as exactly what a vampire is within the warhammer world. Some look like walking corpses, while some are even more beautiful than they were in life. So I suppose as far as an answer as to whether or not vampires can reproduce in "cannonical" fluff, the answer to that would be that some bloodlines can, some bloodlines can't, some bloodlines need to sacrifice a fluffy white bunny on every new moon to retain their ability to reproduce...
GW has made it pretty evident that each bloodline can be vastly different than another.
So if in your fluff you want your bloodline to be able to produce half vampire half human, half elven, half snotling offspring, go for it. No one can tell you that you can't especially with such open ended definitions as to what a vampires nature is within the warhammer world.

 

[Crimson]

Thanks for all of the discussion guys, I'm pretty sure where I can go from here now.

 

[Apocryphus]

half vampire half human, half elven, half snotling offspring

That combination of words just gave me a mental image of a metrosexual plaguebearer with neon hair extensions and platform Gene Simmons boots. You've opened a door in my mind that should have stayed shut, good sir.

 

[Flailing-Axes]

I haven't been able to read all the replies, and am aware that this essentially is a different kind of creature, but the idea is linked.

What would happen if a pregnant woman was given the blood kiss? One would assume that the child would die before the woman returned to unlife due to the lack of oxygen and food, but if we are assuming that vampirism is a kind of infection or disease, it would be passed through the mother's bloodstream and into the baby's system, effectively turning it into a vampire while still in the womb, who would not have need for oxygen or food other than blood. The woman would need to feed at an increadible rate to feed herself and her unborn child, but if she lived to the point of conceiving, i ask you, would it be possible for a vampire to be 'born'?