Did Matt Ward purposely build an Elf super army?

[Scalenex]

To me it appears that GW writers do not take the hobby aspects of the game particularly seriously. They have publicly said they see the game as a beer and pretzels game. I think they take that culture to their business too. Everything from fluff, to mechanics, to releases, to marketing seems short-term focused.

Also, for some reason, everything Matt Ward touches rubs people the wrong way. He happens to be the only GW staffer I can name because every forum brings him up from time to time with discussions on his short-comings.

There is a petition for GW to start treating their company like a business which is well-written minus the spelling errors.

 

[najo]

I agree that individually the elven armies are really well done. It's too bad Khaine was rushed or whatever happened that it wasn't checked.

 

[Archamedius]

I agree that individually the elven armies are really well done. It's too bad Khaine was rushed or whatever happened that it wasn't checked.

I am curious what you would have done differently to balance out an elven host army?

 

[Adam_Barrow]

@Archamedius Did they give the 3 Prowess rules to all elves now? That'd be something that could have been left out certainly. And not just because it's the antithesis of fluff.

 

[Archamedius]

@Archamedius Did they give the 3 Prowess rules to all elves now? That'd be something that could have been left out certainly. And not just because it's the antithesis of fluff.

Host of the eternity King effectively has all three. Models with any of the prowess' end up with Murderess Prowess, Martial Prowess and forest strider.

The other two are an amalgamation of two of the other books and effectively give you two of the three prowess'.

 

[najo]

I am curious what you would have done differently to balance out an elven host army?

First off, I would change the end times magic.
1) 4d6 winds of magic. Defender gets highest two. Chaos uses highest and lowest.
2) redo miscast table so it's more severe based on dice you use. 1-3 as is. 4-5 hits cause multiple wounds (d3) 6+ multiple wounds (d6). Negative effects like chance spell is lost or wizard auto killed increase by +1 at 4-5 dice and +2 at 6+.
3) can recast spells less than 15+ unless fail or dispelled.
4) no broken concentration. End times spells are in and known by wizard level 3 and up. They can be dispelled or some need tweaking and they can't be dispelled.
5) all wizards roll spells as normal and automatically know their signature spell in addition to their normal spells.

Then the army list. Pre-final battle list is fine although Tyrion should have transformed into a daemonic avatar of khaine and given us stats to use the 40k avatar. You could leave it at that, have two lusts, and story wise tweak things to put wood elves in Tyrions army too.

The problem with khaine is the eternity host gets all the units, end times magic and all the special rules. I would tweak end times magic to keep it in check but still end times feeling, I leave the choices in the list as is, but I take away martial prowess, murderous prowess and first stalker and give one rule to the elves that shows they've come together. Give Forest Strider back to the wood elves of course.

But every elf unit fighting and shooting in extra ranks and rerolling 1s on To Wound in close combat is to much.

Perhaps they get extra ranks when shooting, and then they choose which rule they use at the start of each round of combat. OR they all get martial prowess and only get murderous prowess on the first turn when they charge. OR they lose both rules and you replace it with something else that says elves brought together. That could be as simple as losing murderous prowess and all of them gaining martial prowess or you have to give the elves something provocative that is with them both losing their prowess ( and wood elves losing their versions) for something new. Whatever that is, it's the Lynch pin to the new order ahead of the elves. Is the end result of their civil war and the rule that shows their unity together.

 

[Macarian]

Just a thought: maybe the elf lists feel more powerfull only when compared to the other ET lists because they are build out of 3 good armies and the other 2 lists have at least one "bad" army in them.

Undead legions has tomb kings and chaos has beastmen. Wood elves were bad but got updated just before ET. Now I don't believe in a conspiracy from Mr. Ward but maybe it was inevitable when combining 3 good armies this would happen?

 

[najo]

The combined list gives all elves murderous and martial prowess and the elves get the best synergy with the new magic rules that they also force on people. Undead legion losing the general dying and legion of chaos getting a better reign table is not the same level of kapow.

Some of you are scoffing at the idea of Matt Ward purposely did this. But it's one guy who loves his elves. He has been aware of the end times combined lists since he was working on the elf books. There is end times fiction and lead ins mentioned in materials back as far as early 2013. The wood elves has a number of lead ins to the end times in it.

But then, ask yourself the following questions. Why did he need to give martial prowess and murderous prowess to every elf unit? Or why give lore master to every wizard when it gives every spell to the Loremaster of hothe? Why make end times magic required if some one plays an elf army?

These are immediate questions that even if the plan wasn't long term, it means at least when he wrote Khaine he knew he was over powering the elves. How can you not catch the effect of those rules on the elves? Especially when you wrote all of it.

 

[Emicrania]

Again, I look at the end times magic rules, and I see five minutes worth of scribbles from a dude squeezing out a job on the toilet. They just do not strike me as competent or effortful enough to be concealing any sort of agenda, covert or otherwise.

Enlarge this to (too many) recently GW news and you got a simple hard truth of wtf is going on everyday

 

[Sception]

The reason to give loremaster to every wizard is the same reason as recasting - to give people something to do with those extra dice in the magic phase other than try and cast big spells, which they can't reliably do due to the d6 limit, which in turn was added as an attempt to reign in abuse of irresistable force by just six dicing everything. It's a cascade of mechanical failure, patches on half-arsed patches to avoid fixing the actual underlying problem. Another common GW failing not at all exclusive to Ward.

Elves were given both murderous and martial prowess to emphasize that the survivors are all one nation and one people after the events of Khaine. In the same way that undead and nehekharan undead were made the same by the undead legion list. It was a fluff choice that just happened to result in overpowered in-game fallout, a problem we all already knew that ward had, and frankly I blame the fact that it went through more on GW's lack of editing and playtesting than on Ward himself. IMO it's a perfectly valid first draft kind of idea. Unfortunately, GW doesn't generally get past the first draft. Especially w/ Khaine, which seems to be a remarkably sub-par effort all around. I mean, look at the total lack of model releases. Rules balance isn't the only thing that seemed to jump the shark w/ end times book 3.

 

[najo]

I've followed GWs work for over a quarter of a century. In that time, they have way more hits than misses. I think your criticism of them is a bit harsh. I'm not happy with Mat Ward right now, but the guy did allot of positive work too. Honestly, I think Robin Cruddace has been more damaging to Warhammer fantasy than Ward. He gave us both the under powered Tomb Kings and the overpowered Warriors of Chaos. At least Ward's work is all within the same spectrum, current Khaine rules aside.

 

[Sception]

The 'on the toilet' comment was too much, I agree. The point - that Khaine feels like an untested, unedited first draft, remains.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

100% agree that Khaine is just poorly polished all around. The magic phase is buggy, the loremaster rules clearly not thought out past base-cases, and the d6 dispel dice is just totally crap. There's some very clear potential in there but if they playtested it more than a half-dozen games I'll eat my hat.

I'd have put some more restrictions on the Host of the Eternity King list, say make it campaign-specific like the "Chaos Ascendant" rules were. Otherwise there's really no reason to ever use the two awesome other Elven Host lists beyond specific campaign games.

And elves having all three prowess rules is just...ugh. Really, GW? Was that really necessary? They're already the best armies in 8th edition thus far.

 

[PureSphinx]

Maybe they just wanted an army capable of pretending to be able to maybe come close to competing with Ogres.

In all seriousness though; the prowess rules being added together and a level two wizard knowing all the spells doesn't seem so OP to me. Yeah they could have done better on ET:K magic and I probably won't use it, but being a Dark Elf Corsair/Black Guard player I'm gonna use Malekith's army, and I'm gonna try End Times magic for fun. Can I get an example of why 12+ point S3 T3 models getting two prowess rules breaks the game?

 

[Melle]

Maybe they just wanted an army capable of pretending to be able to maybe come close to competing with Ogres. :tongue:

In all seriousness though; the prowess rules being added together and a level two wizard knowing all the spells doesn't seem so OP to me. Yeah they could have done better on ET:K magic and I probably won't use it, but being a Dark Elf Corsair/Black Guard player I'm gonna use Malekith's army, and I'm gonna try End Times magic for fun. Can I get an example of why 12+ point S3 T3 models getting two prowess rules breaks the game?

Witch elves horde fighting in one extra rank. White lions,swordmasters with rerolling ones to wound
Cold one knights/execs/BG fighting in 3 ranks is somewhat OTT.
the 3 elf armies combined negates just about any weakness they got, except low Toughness. But froztys helps here alot

 

[PureSphinx]

Witch elves horde fighting in one extra rank. White lions,swordmasters with rerolling ones to wound
Cold one knights/execs/BG fighting in 3 ranks is somewhat OTT.
the 3 elf armies combined negates just about any weakness they got, except low Toughness. But froztys helps here alot

I get that that's what they can do, I play DE. What I'm asking isn't what does it mean, I'm asking why is that OP? Yeah sure Witchstars get some more attacks and some S5 guys are rerolling ones to wound. I think that Warriors of Chaos and Skaven and especially Ogre Kingdoms need a hit with the nerf bat before people start complaining about Elven Hosts. I am only asking because I don't have firsthand experience and so wanted an actual example of a broken game, not just the new rules they have.

 

[michael]

I will be playing my fist game with the new elves rules soon... not looking forward to it, our games were always tight (unless something like 2 or three mist-casts happened in a row)
oh well adapt or die i say =p. I might lose a few games before i adapt new strategies.

If you want some math hammer I can show you how white Lions are monsters! Now they wound on a 97.22% chance on anything T4 or less. so basically any infantry and probably even some monstrous infantry. IM not calling OP but im forecasting some bloody fights.

PS with the 4D6 power di and spam-able spells, I highly recommend this combo on an elf casting unit
Net of Amyntok +
The Enfeebling Foe

Seriously get that unit to strength 1 and have some giggles while your opponent has to roll a 1 to cast a spell or take D6 S4 hits. with 4D6 and only a 16% chance to roll a 1. he will either give up on casting much (supper handy against 4D6 power di) or take many many D6S4 hits.

 

[Archamedius]

I get that that's what they can do, I play DE. What I'm asking isn't what does it mean, I'm asking why is that OP? Yeah sure Witchstars get some more attacks and some S5 guys are rerolling ones to wound. I think that Warriors of Chaos and Skaven and especially Ogre Kingdoms need a hit with the nerf bat before people start complaining about Elven Hosts. I am only asking because I don't have firsthand experience and so wanted an actual example of a broken game, not just the new rules they have.

Ogre Kingdoms? Really? You say they need a hit and you play dark elves? There is literally 1 thing in the OK list that has any chance of dealing with 28 witch elves and a cauldron. The Ironblaster. All a DE player has to do is take out that and its GG (fairly easy with death magic or similar, heck even bolt throwers can take out an IB). Ogres rely on their T4 for durability. They get absolutely murdered by witch elves. As I am also a DE player, I've been doing it for over a year now. I've played it at several larger tournaments, and it just rolls through them.

As an elf player before I started my VC, I think the combinations of the prowess rules really pushes it over the edge. Before, maximizing my combat potential with a unit of executioners required a horde. Now I can go with a block of 24 to get 19 attacks and +4 static combat res for a significantly cheaper price. Which frees up points for more tools or additional blocks of the same thing for more versatility.

ASF for elves was needed. They are str 3 t 3 base. And they don't have the answer to everything (read: cannons). It makes the army a finesse army, and a glass cannon. Thematically that is cool as it seems to fit well with a generally accepted view of what an Elf is like (cross genre even). I hope they continue this sort of attitude for elves. ASF is strong by itself, but wounding on str 3 mutes it some. Murderess prowess by itself on str 3 isn't that spectacular as it's only reroll 1s. Combining it with martial prowess on str 3 still isn't that great, as its just another at most 10 attacks. That's some extra punch but against 1+ AS it's nothing to write home about.

However, put those same two on a non spear elf choice and then the powers start to sing. You begin to see either up to 7 extra ASF poison attacks, 10 extra STR 6 attacks, or similar. Those hit harder, and the rerolling 1s becomes more evident because 2+ wounds.

All that is certainly way better than anything OK can bring to bear.

 

[najo]

Yeah, I'm going to second that ogre kingdoms are mostly fine. Two things make OK seem OP, ogress deathstar the best of the armies and their 6 MV value. Ogres themselves are fine though. Honestly I think most players lose to them then because they don't expect infantry to move like cavalry. With their move if 6, ogres are on you quick. So evade and rediret, and you will be good.

The other problem is deathstars. So, redirect, wittle down (they are low on armor) and snow characters out.

 

[Yorga]

What ruined 7th edition Warhammer? Answer: The Daemon's Book. Who wrote it? This is simply history repeating. The guy can't help himself. Whether by insidious design or not...he can't help making a mega game breaking army. Frankly all three elven books on their own have builds that are game ruining. The super deathstar banner unit for the High Elves. The all mounted Dark Elves with an abundance of masters and Warlocks. Then the Wood Elves. Yeah...we know how their netlist looks. Now allow all three to be one and to share all their super cosmic powers..... :slapface: As Bill Murray said in Ghostbusters, "Dogs and cats living together....mass hysteria!"

 

[Sanguinus]

Ward did the same with Spaz Muhrines, Grey Knights and Necrons. I don't think it's insidious design so much as he a. has no concept of balance; and b. needs to make his personal armies the best so he can win more easily.

 

[Yorga]

I wonder why GW let him go? Since on his Facebook he was advertising for work I take it he did not leave for another job. Did they finally realize that his work was inconsistent and very incomplete with respect to rule interpretations?

 

[HERO]

I wonder why GW let him go? Since on his Facebook he was advertising for work I take it he did not leave for another job. Did they finally realize that his work was inconsistent and very incomplete with respect to rule interpretations?

I think they needed a scapegoat for their entire design's team shoddy work. Everyone is inconsistent, not just Ward. Look at Cruddace for example, the guy writes the 5th Ed. IG book for 40K and it just dominates with IG parking lots and 130 point Vendettas. Then he writes the Tyranid book and it's a god damn joke. He also wrote the first 8th Ed. Tomb Kings book, but I don't think he wrote another book since then. Now we look at Phil Kelly, and he's arguably their best designer as he wrote our book (8th VC) and other books, but he also wrote the latest Eldar book and that thing is just overshadowed by Wave Serpents.

However, I think we're too quick to judge Ward with his ability to develop "balanced" books. 7th Ed. Demons for WHFB was one of the strongest we've ever seen, but that was during a different time. If you guys remember, we also had VC, DE and Skaven in the top tables consistently for years. 7th Ed. was just a different time, and Demons might have been ahead of the pack, but other books were littered with filth. As strong as the 7th Ed. Demons book was, it was also one of the best books ever written, in fluff and in terms of unit pricing, options and viability. Almost everything in the book was useful, was taken consistently, and no list was the same in those years I played Demons. I have spoken to casuals and competitive players alike at the LGS and at GTs. We all remember it was ridiculously powerful, but we must not forget that it was a great book by design. In the layers of game design, it was just externally balanced poorly (power vs. other armies). It's internal balance (unit viability) and core design (fluff to tabletop transition) was beautiful.

As much as Mat Ward gets chastised for making powerful books that break the "meta" (which is a loose term to define what everyone else is playing), he's a great designer. His books, while consistently powerful, provided players with more options than any other designer has. This is a rarity on the GW design team.

Also, I'd like to mention that they recently changed the authors name to GW Design Team. They did this because they didn't want ragers to target their employees when truth be told, no designer has true say over everything in the book. In game development, things are made as a team, so you might have one guy leading the project and in charge of the overall direction of the book, but everyone has a say to what is balanced and what is fair. It just sucks that a lot of people don't know this and they only live for pitchforks and lynchings.

 

[Melle]

@HERO
Thanks for this post, thread was a 'tad' onesided on the subject

 

[najo]

Cruddace also wrote Empire and Warriors of Chaos also. It's interesting comparing his work as a lot of his armies have similar rules elements in them that he uses.

GW used to use a whole group of designers and developers on an army book and they listed them in the credits. When they did a round of cut backs a few years ago, the books writers got cut back. My understanding books are now getting written by a single author.

As for Matt Ward, I have defended him before in regards to his out of the box thinking as a designer. He does lean over powered slightly, but honestly I think the majority of his work is solid and has brought good things to warhammer. He gave us all of the improvements in 8th edition, the elves being delicate but each army having good strengths. The fluff in the Daemons of them being more like a pantheon that waxes and wanes with how they relate to each other is much more interesting. Hell, I even think Banner of the World Dragon is brilliant, in that it gives High Elves either an elf anvil or super mage bunker depending how you use it. Matt Ward is a bold, risk taking creative guy and I can admire him for that.

The issue though is he can over step and GW lacks the oversight now days to reel that in. End Times magic is a good example, as is the combined elven host.

As for his botches, I personally think what he did to the C'tan was terrible. It took a lot horror out of the fate of the necrotyr. I also disagree about his work on 7th edition Daemons. That army forced you to use nurgle for tarpits and anvils. Khorne for hammers. Slaanesh for support. Tzeentch for magic. Each character had its own daemonic gift list. I have a huge issue with heralds being unable to be level 2 wizards if they are not tzeentch. Daemons are creatures of magic and more connected to it than mortals. Tzeentch affinity for magic should be reflected in his gifts and spells, not that his heralds can be the same level as mortal wizards and the other heralds can't. That is just silly. 7th edition daemons actually made me dump an all slaanesh daemon army I had from 6th, as it killed mono god daemon armies. The only reason DoC 7th was internally balanced is because each unit was good at its one role and none of those roles were shared with another. Externally, DoC 7th dominated the tournament scene and caused part of the lose of interest in fantasy the preceded 8th. The new Daemons of Chaos is much better than 7th was. The only real good thing about 7th DoC is it paved the way for the fluffy and crunch that is in 8th. I would argue too that 6th edition Daemonic Gifts were handled the best of the daemon army so far. I would like to see a single list that you purchase from that has some god specific ones mixed in with a bunch of generic/ undivided gifts. Heralds, Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons would then just all purchase from those gifts in place of magic items, maybe leaving magic weapons in though (which gives a 3rd edition Chaos Weapons sort of feel to it). I don't know.

I totally agree that Phil Kelley is the man. His army books are balanced, nearly everything is at least usable and the mistakes are few and far between. Wave Serpent shields being on the OP side, Master Strike being on the other.

That's my two cents on the matter.