Doom diver
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Ok sorry ill elaborate, my opponent targeted a unit not in combat, the shot scatters towards a unit in close combat but doesnt reach, but the d6 exta movement would let him hit the unit in cc.
No, because the extra D6 is not the scatter, only the scatter die can cause a unit in CC to be hit
NoisyAssassin
Ghoul
General consensus where I play (and on the O&G forums) is that since the D6" redirect doesn't target it's perfectly legal, just kind of a jerk move.
You scatter. Then you choose to use the d6 to correct or not. That d6 can be in *any* direction, but you have to go the full distance (chosen after you roll the d6 to correct. It's the result of banking the wings on the doom diver.
So you can miss a target, correct the full d6 back to that unit, or past to another.
-luke
So you can miss a target, correct the full d6 back to that unit, or past to another.
-luke
akiro27 said:
You do Scatter at first, but then you correct. And if I am not mistaken the wording in the OnG book is something like. you can correct your shot a D6 to TARGET a new unit.
I feel that I read this clearly in my friends book when we ran into this issue.
That being said, the answer is no correction can be used to TARGET a unit in combat, as they can not be TARGETED.
You can definitely pick a point for a doom diver over a unit. I hit multiple units with the template all the time.
“. Fire the Doom Diver Catapult as a stone thrower. However, no template is used. Instead, place the flying Doom Diver Goblin model on the target point, and then roll for scatter as you would for a stone thrower. After doing this, you may roll a D6 and move the Doom Diver Goblin model by that many inches in any direction. If any units are touched by the Doom Diver’s base, then each must take D6 Strength 5 hits with no armour saves allowed. Should the artillery dice roll a misfire, roll a D6 and consult the Doom Diver Misfire table, below.
”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Orcs and Goblins.” Games Workshop, 2012. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/i6EsH.l
So you definitely can go into combat with it (from the scatter), just like a stonethrower.
-luke
“. Fire the Doom Diver Catapult as a stone thrower. However, no template is used. Instead, place the flying Doom Diver Goblin model on the target point, and then roll for scatter as you would for a stone thrower. After doing this, you may roll a D6 and move the Doom Diver Goblin model by that many inches in any direction. If any units are touched by the Doom Diver’s base, then each must take D6 Strength 5 hits with no armour saves allowed. Should the artillery dice roll a misfire, roll a D6 and consult the Doom Diver Misfire table, below.
”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Warhammer: Orcs and Goblins.” Games Workshop, 2012. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/i6EsH.l
So you definitely can go into combat with it (from the scatter), just like a stonethrower.
-luke
Hanblack Nagash
Vargheist
Isnt there a rule somewhere that states you cannot use/shoot in such a way that it may have a chance to hit your own unit?
I dont have brb to hand...
I dont have brb to hand...
Mox,
There is a rule in the BRB that says you may not aim a cannon line-template in such a way that you can hit your own guys - so you have to aim 21'' in front of your own units so that rolling 2 10s on the arty die can't hit your dudes.
With other templates the only restrictions say you can't initially place the template over units in Close Combat, or over your own units. You're allowed to ignore the potential for it to drift onto your own units.
-luke
There is a rule in the BRB that says you may not aim a cannon line-template in such a way that you can hit your own guys - so you have to aim 21'' in front of your own units so that rolling 2 10s on the arty die can't hit your dudes.
With other templates the only restrictions say you can't initially place the template over units in Close Combat, or over your own units. You're allowed to ignore the potential for it to drift onto your own units.
-luke
akiro27 said:
huh....ok, I will definitely have to look it over again. I am not sure where I am remembering the "Targeting" part of the reading of doom diver. It has been sometime since we checked it.
Ripper, your absolutely right about the doom diver if you can correct into combat and my OnG friend is going to love this info! I, not so much
Doom Diver isn't a template. It's a small flying base. If the doom diver's base touches the unit, that unit takes d6 S5 hits with no armor save.
If someone is using the small round template for a doom diver they are cheating because that's like twice the surface area of the small flying base.
If someone is using the small round template for a doom diver they are cheating because that's like twice the surface area of the small flying base.
akiro27 said:it is *not* the round base that comes with the doom diver. It's the flying model itself, which is a (nonstandard) template
-luke
This is not true, the OnG book states "that any units touched by the doom divers base..."
which is indeed a 1.5 round base.
Now I have looked over these rules quite a lot. Seen everyone's opinion in the world of the inter-webs, and I will point out most agree that it is legal to guide into combat.
Here is my final opinion:
1.) I agree that OnG care not of their allies and would target no questions asked
2.) I agree that the first target is not allowed to be a unit in close combat.
3.) I understand the rules of you can "accidentally" hit CC
4.) I understand that stone throwers were not meant to target the ground and "scatter" into CC but because of rules can. Yet would defiantly be unfriendly in my opinion.
5.) I understand they start off as stone throwers. But it is the "scatter" rules that are completely different than a stone thrower!
6.) as the rules are worded for the doom diver you are allowed to move a d6 in any direction of your choice. If not a misfire. This, in my opinion, counts as control and moving into a CC would be a target. (yes yes the rules are really weird here) This is my opinion.
p.39 BRB
"Models are not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat."
"Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy. The key word here is 'accidentally'
OnG book Doom Diver
"...roll for scatter as you would for a stone thrower. After doing this, you may roll a D6 and move the Doom Diver Goblin model by that many inches in any direction."
So having said that, I say NO. I will point out that I play either way. I would prefer a dice off if the OnG player wants to ride in the shade of the rules.
There is no clear answer is the only certain answer here. So decide at start of any game to avoid unfriendly game play.
The 8th edition OnG book came out after the BRB so it take precedence. It says you can move the diver D6" in any direction after scatter and that any unit under the flying base takes D6 S5 hits with no armor save.
You can absolutely shoot the doom diver into combat. You can't 'target' the unit in combat, but you can always scatter into combat, and you can also correct into combat.
You can absolutely shoot the doom diver into combat. You can't 'target' the unit in combat, but you can always scatter into combat, and you can also correct into combat.
Ripper said:
I am not sure what you are pointing out by stating the which book takes precedence. It is not clearly stated in either. This is the reason it is on every forum multiple times. Like I have said it is by printed rules unclear yet possible and unfriendly. In my opinion.
I am seated ATM with a friend and an outrider for GW and tournament judge. He says "it is ambiguous but can be done as is, yet is certainly unfriendly"
"Your not wrong, your just an asshole" -The Dude
JKI like to play:
To decide at start of any game to avoid unfriendly game play.
I like dice off.
Ripper said:
You do not control the rock lobber. It is completely random.
I'll ask you this to help you understand some of us folks who disagree.
If you target a spot on the ground with a rock lobba and the same spot with a doom diver.
which has a higher chance of hitting the unit in close combat, in which you are intending/hoping to hit?
relying on a random direction die is completely different then moving directly toward the unit in close combat 1d6 inches.
If the unit is 5 wide, around 5 inches or more wide, odds are really good.
Play it as you like.
I see there is no point arguing with you. But certainly in my gaming group we always played it that you can use the correction however you want since that's the rules as written and it's not nearly as broken as people want to think in this thread. Against a good opponent your Doom Divers will be dead by the end of turn 2 anyway - they're a priority target.
I see there is no point arguing with you. But certainly in my gaming group we always played it that you can use the correction however you want since that's the rules as written and it's not nearly as broken as people want to think in this thread. Against a good opponent your Doom Divers will be dead by the end of turn 2 anyway - they're a priority target.
Hanblack Nagash
Vargheist
Yes stone throwers rules say it can accidently hit your own models as its out of your hands. But with the extra d6 option if you CHOOSE the direction there is intent so cannot be accidental.
Surely that means by chosing to use the extra dice to land into combat means you are intentially hitting your own unit which the rulebook forbids?
Jusy my two cents
Surely that means by chosing to use the extra dice to land into combat means you are intentially hitting your own unit which the rulebook forbids?
Jusy my two cents
Ripper, no offense, but you seem to have a soft spot for O&G and come across as being a bit biased. And in regard to your question... I have and I agree with mox, not you.
This is not a question about whether it uses a template or not, that is just fishing. Its a question about the doomdiver working like stonethrower as read under the doomdiver rules, so lets take a look at the stonetwrower shall we?
"The template (Read doomdiver) cannot be placed over friendly models, or enemy models engaged in combat, as the crew refuse to deliberately target their allies". What is worth noticing here, is that no army are willing to chance hitting their own allies, which there would be of if they shot at a unit in CC, since you have to imagine those units mixed in with each other fighting. The only exception to this is skaven, where they have made a big deal out of underlining the fact that they CAN shoot in to a CC and have supplied rules as to how to figure out how many models from each side are hit.
As to your question about what would be done if the stonethrower scattered over a unit in CC, you make it sound like its the same thing, which it isnt. Let me elaborate... Under the stonethrower rules it says "Although the shot might well go wide and hit friends by mistake". So the keyword here is that if you want to shoot into CC it has to be an mistake, the doomdiver flapping its wings to get there would NOT be a mistake. In fact, I would even say that reading the stonethrower rules, he would use his d6 scatter to try and NOT hit a unit in CC, since he wont chance hitting his allies. But thats not directly in the rules and is left to players playing it right instead of playing it to their advantage.
This is not a question about whether it uses a template or not, that is just fishing. Its a question about the doomdiver working like stonethrower as read under the doomdiver rules, so lets take a look at the stonetwrower shall we?
"The template (Read doomdiver) cannot be placed over friendly models, or enemy models engaged in combat, as the crew refuse to deliberately target their allies". What is worth noticing here, is that no army are willing to chance hitting their own allies, which there would be of if they shot at a unit in CC, since you have to imagine those units mixed in with each other fighting. The only exception to this is skaven, where they have made a big deal out of underlining the fact that they CAN shoot in to a CC and have supplied rules as to how to figure out how many models from each side are hit.
As to your question about what would be done if the stonethrower scattered over a unit in CC, you make it sound like its the same thing, which it isnt. Let me elaborate... Under the stonethrower rules it says "Although the shot might well go wide and hit friends by mistake". So the keyword here is that if you want to shoot into CC it has to be an mistake, the doomdiver flapping its wings to get there would NOT be a mistake. In fact, I would even say that reading the stonethrower rules, he would use his d6 scatter to try and NOT hit a unit in CC, since he wont chance hitting his allies. But thats not directly in the rules and is left to players playing it right instead of playing it to their advantage.
At the end of the day, it's a silly argument. GW didn't even feel the need to address this in the OnG FAQ and, honestly, this is the first time I've ever even heard someone dispute this rule.
And, honestly, how often is this going to happen in game? You have to scatter and roll the correct result on the correction and your opponent has to have a unit engaged in combat right there, and in order for it to even matter it has to hit a valuable highly armored unit with 1 wound per model. If you scatter onto a unit of Skaven slaves in combat, or zombies, your opponent won't care.
This is just a rule dispute that came up because one time a guy lost a valuable unit and he's looking for a way to avoid it in the future other than just sending some fast cav to take out the doom diver on turn 2.
As I said above, continue to play the rule however you want, it's so rarely going to happen, that simply rolling off is a fine solution. But at the end of the day, those Doom Divers should be dead long before anyone get to combat anyway because they're so deadly.
Just wait until your opponent gets really experienced and starts bouncing fanatics through his own units from the back for that -1 movement to ensure you end up charging over and taking dat 2D6 hits... The OnG book is full of quirky rules like this that seem broken because OnG have to deal with things like animosity. When you beat OnG you will think you are the world's greatest general because you will usually table them. But when OnG beat YOU, you will think their book is broken because they will roll you so hard. Ong win big and lose big and it's largely because of their crazy book. And I've never seen people sperg out harder than when their netlist Dark Elf army gets tabled by pump wagons that are sooooo broken.
OnG are a mid-tier army at best and if the doom diver is really giving you that much trouble that you have to quibble over the rules, just kill the damn thing on turn 1 with a level 2 fireball. It's only got 3 wounds and no armor save.
And, honestly, how often is this going to happen in game? You have to scatter and roll the correct result on the correction and your opponent has to have a unit engaged in combat right there, and in order for it to even matter it has to hit a valuable highly armored unit with 1 wound per model. If you scatter onto a unit of Skaven slaves in combat, or zombies, your opponent won't care.
This is just a rule dispute that came up because one time a guy lost a valuable unit and he's looking for a way to avoid it in the future other than just sending some fast cav to take out the doom diver on turn 2.
As I said above, continue to play the rule however you want, it's so rarely going to happen, that simply rolling off is a fine solution. But at the end of the day, those Doom Divers should be dead long before anyone get to combat anyway because they're so deadly.
Just wait until your opponent gets really experienced and starts bouncing fanatics through his own units from the back for that -1 movement to ensure you end up charging over and taking dat 2D6 hits... The OnG book is full of quirky rules like this that seem broken because OnG have to deal with things like animosity. When you beat OnG you will think you are the world's greatest general because you will usually table them. But when OnG beat YOU, you will think their book is broken because they will roll you so hard. Ong win big and lose big and it's largely because of their crazy book. And I've never seen people sperg out harder than when their netlist Dark Elf army gets tabled by pump wagons that are sooooo broken.
OnG are a mid-tier army at best and if the doom diver is really giving you that much trouble that you have to quibble over the rules, just kill the damn thing on turn 1 with a level 2 fireball. It's only got 3 wounds and no armor save.
Its not about power levels, its about playing the rules as intended. This is supposed to be played like a stonethrower, ea. avoid hitting your own units, so that that... But as you said, everyone to their own, and if your gaming group are fine with you playing it differently, then this isnt even a problem for you.