Empire detachments and buildings

[arbogast]

A situation came up during a mega-battle on Saturday:

1. An Empire parent unit is garrisoned in a building.
2. It's detachments are within 3" next to the building.
3. The building is assaulted by a unit.

Building rules refresher:

1. Only 1 unit can assault a building at any given time.
2. Only 10 models from each side may fight the unit in the building (the same number that can fight from inside the building).
3. Only wounds are counted for combat resolution "mostly because the unit in the building cannot be said to have flanks."

Questions:
Can the detachment counter-shoot against the assaulting unit?
Can the detachment counter-charge?

 

[Neferazo]

I would say yes to both questions, but for sake of continuity it merely means that members of the detachment can take part in the 10 man assault party on the Empire side. Just my opinion, though.

 

[Aeviaan]

My first answer is yes to both, but I could be totally mistaken. The rules for fighting in buildings only apply to those garrisoned, so I don't see why you couldn't have a multi-combat going on.

 

[Aramoro]

I would say you can't counter charge for the sake of sanity. You can't multi assault buildings and if you could counter charge then it breaks how building work in some wacky way, like choosing your assaulting party when some models will now be in base contact with other, and when you get bumped back an inch you'd have to drag the other unit with you.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

My second army is Empire.
In this situation they can not charge the unit attacking as they would make it a multiple combat as though a detachment they can also be independant thus it must remain a single combat but they can still stand and shoot from the detachments as it takes no toll in regards to combat rez, etc.
If a detachment charged and the attacking unit is beat it is pushed back, if they have been flanked and beaten they could run but they have to move back an inch out of the building first as building combats do not work the same way as you get no standard, ranks, flanks etc, See my point?

 

[arbogast]

My second army is Empire.
In this situation they can not charge the unit attacking as they would make it a multiple combat as though a detachment they can also be independant thus it must remain a single combat but they can still stand and shoot from the detachments as it takes no toll in regards to combat rez, etc.
If a detachment charged and the attacking unit is beat it is pushed back, if they have been flanked and beaten they could run but they have to move back an inch out of the building first as building combats do not work the same way as you get no standard, ranks, flanks etc, See my point?

I also play Empire (should I post the report in Legacies of blood? VCs did participate).

I believe the unit can counter-charge and the other can counter-shoot. The way I read it is:

1. Only 1 unit can assault the building.
2. Only the unit in the building has no flanks.
3. Detachments can counter-charge a unit attacking their parent unit and hit the flank as long as they can draw LOS to it.
4. Assaulting unit moves in, counter-charge happens.
5. Assaulting unit chooses 10 models to attack the building.
6. Flanking unit can be attacked by any models in base to base contact that were not designated as part of the 10 models assaulting the building (I don't see this as a sanity-destroying exercise).
7. Only casualties count in the combat per the building rules.
8. If the attacker loses or the defenders don't break, the assaulting unit is moved back 1" and so is the flanking detachment (away from the attackers).

No one seems to argue that a detachment couldn't stand and shoot, and I don't like applying half a set of special rules in some instances b/c it might be tricky.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

However if the attackers win the fight for the building but lose against the flank charge as it would then count as a different combat it gets mucky.
Thus is why people restrict it to a single combat as per the attacking buildings rule, Stand and shoot is not combat nor does any kills count towards its result.

 

[arbogast]

However if the attackers win the fight for the building but lose against the flank charge as it would then count as a different combat it gets mucky.
Thus is why people restrict it to a single combat as per the attacking buildings rule, Stand and shoot is not combat nor does any kills count towards its result.

That could be the case if it were separate combats, but they're not (no more so than the same situation occurring in the open field).

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

True but because the unit outside flanking the other will not gain any bonus and will be limited to the 10 man defense squad.Thats why even when multi units charge the building for some reason (forced movement) only 1 can complete its charge, buildings are not meant to have multi combats, inside or out and a unit which flanks outside would not break from combat if the other unit would be pushed back because the troops would not disengage.

I don't know if you have noticed but allot of the rules we have are not exactly what you would have happen in the field either.

 

[The_Peacemaker]

Duke danse macabre, I see your reasoning about no extra combat rez for the flanking unit but your way off on limiting the detachment to the 10man assault party. The Detatchment isn't assaulting a building so how is it restricted?

Hmmm, also the combat rez consisting of casualties is only for the unit inside the building. Only they made a break test.

Here is what I think:
I say everything works as normal except that the unit assaulting the building sends its 10man unit in while the rest of the unit fights the detachment, remember that models in base to base must fight each other so they can't go into the assault party. If they win, the unit in building takes a break test, stays or flees as normal.
The assulting unit can't garrison the building because its locked in combat so they would have to defeat the flankers and make them break.

Remember the 1" rule is for 'clarity' sake(from the BRB). So its basically the only rule that let's you shuffle models.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I said 10 man defense squad, that means the building as its limited to 10 men, the detachment has charged.

But that means the charging unit fights 2 combats which do not support each other, also due the the charging rules and the building itself being able to see in all directions with the unit inside it gets a bit insane.

But that would not make sense still, if the unit in the building breaks the new one moves in but they are in combat and if they lose they would flee so why would the building unit flee from fleeing unit if its was all essentially happening at the same time?
Also I don't see a unit that has being beaten leaving the building to the attackers if they are unable to move into it, these are the realms we are entering and its just getting weird.

 

[Lord Fear]

This question is actually answered in the main rulebook FAQ:

"Q: What happens if a unit that is assaulting a building is itself
charged? (p127)
A: The assault on the building is abandoned (move the unit
that was assaulting the building backward 1") The two units
outside the building are now engaged in combat instead and
will fight a round of combat this turn"

This makes detachments really great at protecting their parent units in a building! The enemy completes their charge, then the detachment moves in and forces them to abandon their assault.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Thank god.
Now that makes sense.

So its just stand and shoot, anything else is entirely different ball game.

Cheers for that one Lord Fear.

 

[arbogast]

This question is actually answered in the main rulebook FAQ:

"Q: What happens if a unit that is assaulting a building is itself
charged? (p127)
A: The assault on the building is abandoned (move the unit
that was assaulting the building backward 1") The two units
outside the building are now engaged in combat instead and
will fight a round of combat this turn"

This makes detachments really great at protecting their parent units in a building! The enemy completes their charge, then the detachment moves in and forces them to abandon their assault.

Nice! Missed that. Thanks!

 

[The_Peacemaker]

That's a pretty sweet faq statement.
Hmmm, large unit of handgunners with a big halberd detachment is looking pretty tempting.
....Although still crappy.
I wish Empire had some kinda pavise xbow unit.

Then again, I wish vamps had some kind of stone thrower that launched zombies.