Fast Counts

[UberlordGendo]

Hello assembled sages of the night!
I've been playing around with the idea of a cavalry based VC army. The problem I keep running into is magic.

I'm totally new to fantasy, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand 2000 points to be fairly standard?
The list would look something like:


Core: 500 points of Dire Wolves (I'm thinking I'll use their vanguard to put pressure on the enemy as quickly as possible and use IoN with that master of night creatures to keep them above full strength.)
Special: Equal split of Hexwraiths and Black Knights
(Love the idea of fantasmal cavalry riding through the sky.)

Lords/Heroes are where it gets tricky
I really like the idea of the Coven Throne or a Dragon, but at that point, the guy gets very expensive, particularly once I upgrade the magic.
A Lord on a Dragon or a Throne can kill most anything, right? So that's a fine unit to have, but I then need to invest elsewhere for the caster, who doesn't have a mount that doesn't get in the way of the other guys.
Does a Master Necromancer on an Abyssal Terror make sense as a durable caster that can keep up with ethereal cavalry and not slow them down?

And thoughts on fast vampires in general?

 

[Wolf1771]

In a list like that I would put the VL in the black knights. A lvl4 VL could still hit like a truck for less than 500 points. If you want to run a necromancer in addition to your VL I would throw in a WK or hero Vampire into the black knights as well so that your necromancer is displaced to the second rank, saving him from getting murdered. I would also make room for a TG as it will be able to keep up with everything. Love the idea of only dire wolves though!:lol:

 

[UberlordGendo]

In a list like that I would put the VL in the black knights. A lvl4 VL could still hit like a truck for less than 500 points. If you want to run a necromancer in addition to your VL I would throw in a WK or hero Vampire into the black knights as well so that your necromancer is displaced to the second rank, saving him from getting murdered. I would also make room for a TG as it will be able to keep up with everything. Love the idea of only dire wolves though!:lol:

That sounds pretty good, particularly the TG, but won't any character besides a WK slow the BK down? Or is that not as big a problem as I seem to think it is?

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

For the record you'll probably find 2400 or 2500 to be standard for most games, and in my experience most groups play 2500.

 

[LordTobiothan]

In a list like that I would put the VL in the black knights. A lvl4 VL could still hit like a truck for less than 500 points. If you want to run a necromancer in addition to your VL I would throw in a WK or hero Vampire into the black knights as well so that your necromancer is displaced to the second rank, saving him from getting murdered. I would also make room for a TG as it will be able to keep up with everything. Love the idea of only dire wolves though!:lol:

That sounds pretty good, particularly the TG, but won't any character besides a WK slow the BK down? Or is that not as big a problem as I seem to think it is?

Same movespeed, only difference is the ethereal movement is lost. Which shouldn't be an issue at all.

Coven throne cant march because it is a chariot so it would be slow as hell in this list. Dragons are generally terrible due to cannon fire eating your expensive unit. So I wouldn't worry about fielding those.

What has been suggested to you is the vampire counts version of a death star unit. It is basically the roughest thing you can field so I wouldn't recommend it if you are playing with beginners that wont have similar types of silly armies. I do think the vamp in black knights is a good idea though either way.

 

[Wolf1771]

What has been suggested to you is the vampire counts version of a death star unit. It is basically the roughest thing you can field so I wouldn't recommend it if you are playing with beginners that wont have similar types of silly armies.

You won't make any friends with that unit
I also wouldn't take too many units of hexwraiths, as I believe that you can only nominate one to get the moving through damage per phase. So moving three hexwraiths through units would only work as well as moving one unit. I would in turn take some Vargheists or even crypt horrors as the Vargheists are able to march 20 and the CH 12, which still be very quick.

 

[UberlordGendo]

Ah, cool and cool and cool. (I come from 40k)

Does it make sense to parcel out Heroes and Lords to different units?
I'd tend to want to keep a caster within 12" of the Hexwraiths for drivebys. Would an Abyssal Horror work as a way to keep the Necro safe if there were a pair of terrorgeists prancing about? (Logic here being I want to avoid putting the necro in a unit of knights since if they're within a foot of Hexwraiths on the far side of an enemy unit, they'll probably be stuck in and thus not able to cast, ergo my caster has to be in a separate unit.)


Anyways, something like this?

Core:
4 units of 20 wolves

Special:
2x10 Lance and Barded Black Knights (Or should I make it bigger and throw in Banners?)
2x10 Hexwraiths with Hellwraiths

Rare:
2 Terrorgeists

Which should leave like 700 points to spend, and since I'm assuming that since lore of vampires is more for buffing than for fighting, my Lord will be accordingly built for smashing faces in, I'm liking Fear Incarnate and Aura of Dark Majesty, particularly if they're in a squad with the Screaming Banner. My instinct is to go for Summon Creatures of the Night over Red Fury.
He'll be like 320 points after mount, weapons, and powers.
And then for support casters, I'm thinking I'll stick to Vampires since only they can summon more wolves. Do they ride with the wolves?

 

[Wolf1771]

The biggest problem with the wolves is that they will die faster than zombies in combat after the charge. They have no save of any kind and you will likely have less static CR due to no banner and few ranks. The Vampire hero would be best paired near the VL. That way if you're really going for a fear bomb you can stack that with fear incarnate and still keep your summon creatures of the night. I think the consensus on abyssal terrors is that they are way to expensive for what they are. But if you want to try it out go for it ! I would bump that black knight up and add in barrows, as you suggested also. I would also lose the hellwraiths as the strength of the hexwraiths is not in combat but movement and you will likely not want to waste those points on combat upgrades.
What do you mean by

Logic here being I want to avoid putting the necro in a unit of knights since if they're within a foot of Hexwraiths on the far side of an enemy unit, they'll probably be stuck in and thus not able to cast, ergo my caster has to be in a separate unit.

?

 

[LordTobiothan]

You won't make any friends with that unit
I also wouldn't take too many units of hexwraiths, as I believe that you can only nominate one to get the moving through damage per phase. So moving three hexwraiths through units would only work as well as moving one unit. I would in turn take some Vargheists or even crypt horrors as the Vargheists are able to march 20 and the CH 12, which still be very quick.

Actually the part you are reading is just saying a single unit cant use the ability on more then one unit per turn. Multiple units can all do it in a turn though.

@UberlordGendo

The fear incarnate, aura of dark majesty, and screaming banner, can all be placed on a hero vamp and accomplish the same effect as putting it on a lord, saving your lord to be a little more combat focused. You can even equip the hero with the night shroud for major de-buffing.

Then you can do whatever seems killiest for the points you have on the Lord. Also don't run any of the characters with the wolves, just split them between the two black knight units. It's an odd army but I'd definitely like to hear how well you do going all cavalry.

 

[Wolf1771]

That makes them LOADS better!!! :slapface: I've always questioned why anyone would ever take multiple units...

 

[Count Lupei]

@uber
Casters can cast hexes and augments into and out of combat, just no damage spells

 

[Burnanation]

You can have a hero running around out of a unit, but he will have a giant target plastered on him.

If you're just starting out, especially trying to make a transition from 40k to fantasy, I'd keep it simple.

80 wolves sounds novel, but you might find that it's a huge money sink for something that doesn't work, or worse, you don't like.

Example. I started playing Beastmen way back when you could mix Warriors and Deamons in. So I picked up a box of Chaos Knights. They would be awesome! Sadly they never fit my play style and ended up on the shelf for forever.

Until I resurrected them as Black Knights!!!

You might try picking up 10 wolves (which could be useful in any army list) and proxy the other 70 and play test before buying them all.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

A friend of mine tried to run the wolf-heavy list with a BK bus, and Summon Creatures of the Night on his level 4 vampire. It sounded awesome on paper, but with the dogs not being fast cav he found they as often got in the way of his own units as his enemies'. They tripped up his army, and he was really glad that he didn't shell out all that money for them (especially since he was going to buy Fenrisian Wolves to use as them instead). It was something like $550 CAD worth of dogs he almost bought, before realizing that they absolutely wouldn't work with his playstyle.

 

[UberlordGendo]

Currently thinking about all that, though I did want to say that I've been planning on testing all this with Vassal before putting any money down.

 

[UberlordGendo]

Hmmm, given all this, if I don't end up using the wolves in core, what would you guys advise for a fast army?

Is taking the book the only way to be sure I'll get danse macabre?

 

[heldantes]

In a list like that I would put the VL in the black knights. A lvl4 VL could still hit like a truck for less than 500 points. If you want to run a necromancer in addition to your VL I would throw in a WK or hero Vampire into the black knights as well so that your necromancer is displaced to the second rank, saving him from getting murdered. I would also make room for a TG as it will be able to keep up with everything. Love the idea of only dire wolves though!:lol:

That sounds pretty good, particularly the TG, but won't any character besides a WK slow the BK down? Or is that not as big a problem as I seem to think it is?

Same movespeed, only difference is the ethereal movement is lost. Which shouldn't be an issue

I think the loss of the ethereal movement will mean that the unit will now be subject to the minus 1 movement penalty for barded steeds.

However the difference between 16 inch marching and 14 inches is only circumstantially important, whereas having some hero or Lord back up is always helpful.

 

[Seneschal]

Banner of Swiftness takes cares of the loss of movement and it is actually the most used banner on BK buses.
Wolf heavy core is also a popular choice, just don't let them clog your forward movement. A bit of practice makes the difference.

 

[countwuzzy]

The list ive been playing, (hasnt lost)
I throw VL on hellsteed, he can start in black knight unit if want, and depending on who your playing. He can stay(for those timid generals)fly or charge out of the unit. When he is out of the unit, i keep him close to hexeraths for 4+ look out sire. A perfect cannon ball shot on your lord hitting a hex wrath is a good feeling.
I also would suggest trying different sizes of wolves, sizes 10-20 have a chance at winning combat against some weaker stuff. But units of 5 are so cheap. I usually take 8 of them, and throw them all away.
My opponents spend all game dealing with them. I usually redirect against large units. And small range units i dual or triple charge. Only one unit of 5 can die on stand and shoot reaction.