This is one of those agree to disagree situations. In my view you have already applied your Transmutation of Lead in the Magic Phase, Fear reduces you by whatever it needs to for your unit to be WS 1 not your profile stat, your printed stat etc. It doesn't ignore your Transmutation, reduce you to WS 1 then reapply the penalty.
Fear and Metal
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Interesting read this. I'm in the WS0 camp. I look at it kinda like a equation WSactual = WSbase + modifiers so any time WS need to be checked I look at the base WS and apply any active modifiers. If he has fencers blade the base WS would be 10 but even then fear would reduce the base WS to 1 temporarily imo. I'm not sure where this talk about reapplying effects come from... is anything like that even mentioned in the rules?
Dan_Lee
Grave Guard
I'm with Zhatan on this. For me I'd calculate stats in the following steps whenever I need to use the stat:
1) Apply any permanent effects that set the stat (e.g. fencer's blades setting WS to 10)
2) Apply any temporary effects that set the stat (e.g. fear setting WS to 1)
3) Apply an effects that multiply/divide the stat (e.g. spells that half T)
4) Apply all effects that raise/lower the stat by a set amount (e.g. +2 WS from dread knight)
I know this isn't explicitly written in the BRB, but it should be.
1) Apply any permanent effects that set the stat (e.g. fencer's blades setting WS to 10)
2) Apply any temporary effects that set the stat (e.g. fear setting WS to 1)
3) Apply an effects that multiply/divide the stat (e.g. spells that half T)
4) Apply all effects that raise/lower the stat by a set amount (e.g. +2 WS from dread knight)
I know this isn't explicitly written in the BRB, but it should be.
I would be inclined to say that the modifier should still apply.
A unit has WS4 and gets hit with the -1 WS spell.
Something later reduces WS to 1. They are still under the effect of the -1 WS from the spell. IMO, the -1 should still be applied to the WS 1, resulting in a WS of 0.
I agree with the Fencers Blade example as well. It gives the wielder a WS10 (ie a stat change). So it could still be reduced.
I think we will have to watch the FAQs for this one though. I remember the 7th FAQ had the Accursed Armour penalty NOT being applied after the Helm effect... so, it is unclear at best. (Character with -3 WS from AA still ended up with WS7 from a Helm Lord).
A unit has WS4 and gets hit with the -1 WS spell.
Something later reduces WS to 1. They are still under the effect of the -1 WS from the spell. IMO, the -1 should still be applied to the WS 1, resulting in a WS of 0.
I agree with the Fencers Blade example as well. It gives the wielder a WS10 (ie a stat change). So it could still be reduced.
I think we will have to watch the FAQs for this one though. I remember the 7th FAQ had the Accursed Armour penalty NOT being applied after the Helm effect... so, it is unclear at best. (Character with -3 WS from AA still ended up with WS7 from a Helm Lord).
Yeah the reasoning behind the helm in the faq, if I remember correctly, was that is was the lords WS that was used so debuffs on the unit didn't matter. However a debuff on the lord did reduce the WS he gave to other units.
Just goes to show us that until the FAQ is out we can't be sure what they intended... Just look at the Ogre FAQ :slapface: Apparently we can't even guess any more...
And even if we do, and they make a mistake.. they will still allow it, even if it's wasn't their intent! :slapface:
And even if we do, and they make a mistake.. they will still allow it, even if it's wasn't their intent! :slapface:
Questioner
Wight King
I am firmly in the WS1 camp.
The -1 WS modifier is applied before the fear, so a WS 4 unit is WS3, then reduced to WS1 through fear.
If the unit was WS1 before the -1 WS modifier, then they would be WS0.
The -1 WS modifier is applied before the fear, so a WS 4 unit is WS3, then reduced to WS1 through fear.
If the unit was WS1 before the -1 WS modifier, then they would be WS0.
Vampire Ron
Grave Guard
What happens if a unit with WS 1 get transmutation cast on it, then fails its fear check? Does fear make things better? 
Questioner
Wight King
Vampire Ron said:What happens if a unit with WS 1 get transmutation cast on it, then fails its fear check? Does fear make things better?
No, still WS0, as fear says reduced to WS1.
I think this is actually a lot simpler than we're making it out to be. As they're two modifications being applied at the same time, it comes down to the player whose turn it is decides the order. So, if it's your turn, you get to make them WS1 then reduce it by 1 to 0, and if it's their turn, then they will almost certainly reduce by 1 first, before changing it to 1.
This is how the main rulebook tells us to deal with these sorts of things- and there's an example in the Dark Elf FAQ with Manbane and Rending Stars, one of which makes the Assassin's Str the Toughness of its target plus one, and the other that raises its Str by one point; and the FAQ confirms "player whose turn it is decides". Yes, it's stupid. But go with it
This is how the main rulebook tells us to deal with these sorts of things- and there's an example in the Dark Elf FAQ with Manbane and Rending Stars, one of which makes the Assassin's Str the Toughness of its target plus one, and the other that raises its Str by one point; and the FAQ confirms "player whose turn it is decides". Yes, it's stupid. But go with it
Questioner
Wight King
arbogast said:
Yes. If the unit had armour before, it gets +2 to it as per the Scaly Skin. If it didn't, it would just have the 5+. The effects do not happen at the same time.
Fear reduces you to WS1 at the start of the close combat phase.
When it is time for you to strike you are still under the effects of the spell (just read the card next to the unit, or the description in the brb), and thus suffer a -1WS penalty.
(Even if you try to wiggle it, Fear cannot "reduce" you from 0 back to 1, meaning you're stuck at the lesser value (0))
As for the other spells and Fencer's Blades, I would say the player whos turn it is decides.
When it is time for you to strike you are still under the effects of the spell (just read the card next to the unit, or the description in the brb), and thus suffer a -1WS penalty.
(Even if you try to wiggle it, Fear cannot "reduce" you from 0 back to 1, meaning you're stuck at the lesser value (0))
As for the other spells and Fencer's Blades, I would say the player whos turn it is decides.
I'm really on the side of WS 1. The way I see it fear doesn't reduce your WS by your original starting value, it reduces it (regardless of other modifiers) to 1. If your WS was 4, but was reduced to 3 then that doesn't matter. It still is reduced down to one. Once spell is resolved in the magic phase, it doesn't readjust itself to compensate for new effects-it has already made it's move.
We'll I guess Aramoro was right when he said "This is one of those agree to disagree situations". If you can't agree then this is what the FAQ says:
Q: What happens when there is a conflict between two magic items
or special rules? (p2)
A: Use ‘The Most Important Rule
Q: What happens when there is a conflict between two magic items
or special rules? (p2)
A: Use ‘The Most Important Rule
Questioner
Wight King
Questioner said:
A conflict is exactly what we are having here... I fail to see how you could fail to see that. =)
Questioner
Wight King
NEWS FLASH!
I sent a email to Games Workshop this morning, saying:
"When a unit is affected by Transmutation of Lead and then fails a Fear test in the subsequent Combat phase, what WS would it fight at?"
I got a reply:
"Thanks for the email, the fear rule would supersede the spell effects and they would use WS 1.
We hope this helps.
Regards
Kyle Workman
Games Workshop Customer Service
tel: 0044 (0) 115 91 40000"
I sent a email to Games Workshop this morning, saying:
"When a unit is affected by Transmutation of Lead and then fails a Fear test in the subsequent Combat phase, what WS would it fight at?"
I got a reply:
"Thanks for the email, the fear rule would supersede the spell effects and they would use WS 1.
We hope this helps.
Regards
Kyle Workman
Games Workshop Customer Service
tel: 0044 (0) 115 91 40000"
Ok no conflict any more then =)
As we are to play it in the order it affected the unit I hope they are consistent an that this is how we handle all things like this. Too bad you didn't ask them about fencers blade as well. When would that be considered to "take effect" ?
As we are to play it in the order it affected the unit I hope they are consistent an that this is how we handle all things like this. Too bad you didn't ask them about fencers blade as well. When would that be considered to "take effect" ?
Questioner
Wight King
That settles the debate, methinks. Not that the WS0 idea is not awesome, but GW have spoken.
And the WS0 idea is soooo awesome that I wish the reply had been for WS0!!
And the WS0 idea is soooo awesome that I wish the reply had been for WS0!!
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