Fighting Dwarves

[Templar31p]

Ok, the shooting is the obvious thing, but my question is....

How do we deal with dwarves? And how do we deal with dwarves on a unit to unit basis? I can see this turning into a brick wall smashing into a brick wall, only we get shot to bits before reaching them. I can foresee my opponent stacking up on the his edge of the board and waiting on me to reach him. Maybe I can reach him by turn 4 but then what will I have available at that point?

 

[Fodderboy]

Wind of Undeath or Comet until his war machines pop.

 

[Humaneater]

Well, if you're feeling particularly not-nice, take a Suicide Vampire with Forbidden Lore (Death)... you can see where this is going.

Forbidden Lore, Talisman of the Lycni and a Power Scroll - cover his force in a large template Purple Sun of Brokenness - highest Initiative in his army is four, I think, and thats only the Slayer Lords - half his army dies if you can get the Vampire in to position properly. The only problem here is relying on irresistable force - if you fail to roll any doubles (with your power scroll) then he'll dispel you with millions of dice from his Runesmiths and Runelords, always at +2 to dispel.

Blood Knights are another great way of defeating him. Make sure you get the Banner of Blood Keep in the unit somewhere (perhaps a mounted WK with BSB). You'll outrun him and be in combat by turn two latest, and he'll struggle to shoot you to bits with the 2+ save, and, more importantly, the 4+ ward save against all his shooting. A good thing to have in there is a Blood Drinker on a Vampire Lord, but that can bump up the cost a lot. Just remember to keep his cannons off your flank.

The thing is with VCs vs. Dwarfs, if you have a heavy caster army you'll be getting dispelled a lot anyway; the suicidehero vampire would be a good way of soaking up spare PD's, but ultimately a combat Lord is the best use of your points for a Lord (I'm presuming you're playing 2000-2500 here) because all the magic you'll need against dwarfs is IoN, and possibly VHD; so you'll have necromancers for that.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

Here's some tips against Dwarves.

1) Take Fell Bats. If you are playing a standard game (2000-2500 points) at least two units of five will do well, maybe even three units. They are fast enough to get a charge on turn 2 (or at 3 if you are unlucky) and they will do wel against war machine crewmen. Even with T4 Dwarves are going to die or be without shooting. They can break too if your opponent is very unlucky! If your opponent tries to shoot your bats it's okay, at least he's not going to shoot your Grave Guards with those pesky Organ Guns.

2) Purple Sun suicide Vampire, as Humaneater explained it.

3) Combat Lord (Humaneater explained this too ). I found out that this compo is the best one, good all-round Lord.

Vampire Lord
- Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Ghoulkin
- Sword of Strife, Talisman of Preservation, The Cadaverous Cuirass

He has 6 re-rollable attacks with Str 5 (I know, Str 6-7 could be better against stunties but I prefer more attacks), every kill grants an extra attack and he's protected pretty well too. Ghoulkin is very good against stunties, who wouldn't take an extra move against a gunline?

4) Zombie walls. Units of 20 Zombies with musician at the front of units which are not Ghouls, Grave Guards for example. Zombies are cheap meat walls so why not to use them? When they've done their quest they can just swift reform and move out of the way. That or they're already destroyed, whatever. Just remember not to take them into combat, they just bring some easy kills (and combat resolution) for Dwarves.

5) Spirit Hosts. These ones might do well as war machine hunter unless your opponent fields Thorek Ironbrow.

So that's what comes first to my mind, good luck at your games!

 

[Templar31p]

Thanks for the responses. I'm playing him this morning and I'll let you know how it goes. I'm hoping for the best.

 

[Templar31p]

It went exactly how I thought it would when I battled the dwarves. He had three grudge throwers and two organ guns. Tie that into having an anvil with the named guy (Thorgum or something?) and I was done before it began. The gunline destroyed me. I gave my guys ghoulkin so I could cover some ground with my two blocks of 40 ghouls, but all that did was get them even closer to being shot to bits. He could reroll essentially any shot he wanted with his abilities. On turn 4 I rolled two dice for IoN from my Lord and as it always happens to me, he miscast.

Rolled a 3 for the miscast, he took out a bunch of his GG buddies.

Rolled a 2 for surival or not and he died.

Needless to say, this is the luck I have with any list I make. I get so frustrated. I would take a Carstein ring on the lord, but then that takes away the entire fun I have with a lord. I'm not going to hide the guy. I just cannot find a good way to take out a gunline. It seems impossible. The only way I can see it happening is by simple luck on my part and piss poor rolls by him. I don't like those odds.

 

[TobinRoss89]

Yeah those grudge throwers are mean. I would just try point denial and take a big block of graveguard with a bsb with the flag of blood keep. Fast things are your friends, like said before your going to have to take a lot of bats to tie up/kill their war machines and a combat lord is a bit more effective though I wouldnt rule out a caster lord just to pound VDM over and over to keep the army moving fast.

 

[Poxous]

Around here the Dwarves are rolling 50 man/dwarf hammer units. Got to be careful about those SOBs.

 

[witchking1980]

Field wraiths and kill his artillery since dwarves don't have many choices to do them harm, then use a support level 4 lord with helm and you will be alright

 

[Coyote]

I'll disagree, Witchking, as I've played with and against my dad's Dwarfs on numerous occasions. If you look at their Army Book, you'll find that all of their Special Choice warmachines can be given Runes. As soon as this is done, those warmachines count as having magical attacks. Bye, bye Ethereal units.

 

[witchking1980]

I'll disagree, Witchking, as I've played with and against my dad's Dwarfs on numerous occasions. If you look at their Army Book, you'll find that all of their Special Choice warmachines can be given Runes. As soon as this is done, those warmachines count as having magical attacks. Bye, bye Ethereal units.

I know they have their magic runes to buff the warmachines, but in this edition the terrain is plenty to hide, also their stone thrower uses the small template and the cannon shoots in straight line, so even if the enemy player decides to shoot your wraiths you will lose one per shot. Some of them will reach the artillery. Just my 2cents.

 

[Big D Von Carstein]

You are forgetting the artillery dice worth of magical grapeshot that is also an option for dwarven cannons, S5, counts as magical and can be rerolled with the rune of forging if it happens to misfire. Combined with the obligatory Master Engineer w RoFire (to scare your "normal" WM hunters) and the Wraiths will struggle to make it. D6 S4 hits from the anvil also hurts. Being ethereal does not scare Dwarfs one bit i'm afraid.

 

[merenwen]

I pretty much only play against dwarfs and i like the Varghulf for my artiliry killing force, i alwas field atleast one. I also like a combat heavy vamp lord, (vamp lord, FHB, sword of Blood shed, infinate hatered, red fury), its points heavy but i get to deal upto 14 attacks in one turn at ST6. also Dwarfs like to steal 2 of our PD every turn to i like to have another vamp for magic heavy, i give it as many options for PD as possible. Black periapt is always something i take, guarantees me an extra PD on every turn.I dont often take out his gun line because as soon as i am in combat they are rendered useless, he doesnt like to get them into combat because they are crap at fighting. GG and Black knights are a must have, and on higher points games (3000+) i would have some blood knights. i also like to take a Black coach if i can aford it.
I never take ethereals because he puts runes on every thing! rendering my ethereals useless.
Lore of metal is good as well because of their high armour saves, but not as effective in this ed. Also i try not to use ION, and i stick with summon undead horde and curse of years, vanhels and wind of undeath on the odd ocasion i manage to get off a spell.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

And don't forget, Anvil of Doom makes magical attacks so it's one trouble more for us...

If he uses Thorek Ironbrow, then why not you're not using cheesy things too, suicide-sun guy for perhaps? :devil2: Honestly, Thorek compined with gunline army is so unfair army that if I had to face it then I'd just collect my stuff and say "see you 'round". o_o

 

[Johnny B]

Field wraiths and kill his artillery since dwarves don't have many choices to do them harm

He's using Thorek, thats Ancient Power on a 3+ with one re-roll, so 2D6 S4 magical hits on D3 of your units each turn, and halved movement. That's before the Grudge Throwers and magical Grapeshot. Wraiths ain't the way to go. Blood Knights with Flag of Blood Keep are a better bet, my Dwarfs hate 'em.

I recommend a melee Lord and a second caster with Beasts. Vamp Lord with Savage Beast of Horros can do horrendous damage and Dwarfs generally don't have tooled up melee characters capable of standing up to him, certainly not in gunlines. Hatred + Red Fury + Sword of +3 Attacks + Savage Beast is utter filth and will remove 15+ Dwarfs in one go.

Ghoulkin is nice, as is Purple Sun spam (auto-kills Thorek as the Anvil is a war machine). He's bringing the cheese (Thorek), so should you. Maybe try Mannfred, he is horrible now.

also Dwarfs like to steal 2 of our PD every turn

How is he stealing 2 of your dice? Master Rune of Balance is just that, a Master Rune, ie he can only have one.

he doesnt like to get them into combat because they are crap at fighting.

Heh, he not using Warrior blocks with great weapons? They are the mutt's nuts in 8th. My Dwarfs run 3x24 warriors, they eat most units quickly, as long as they're backed up by shooting. The elites are pretty worthless now.

 

[Wintermadness]

Hmm I don't have much experience against dwarfs but I also think combat heavy is the way to go, the only time I played against dwarfs I was using Mannfred with +6 to cast who mannaged to kill half his models with a sun with 30" range

But in a proper game I would go a scouting vamp with lycni to take care of war machines, ghouls with ghouls and some supporting ghouls (oh and varghulfs!) and pray to get the first turn so I can charge turn 2, also an important thing is to master your hidding skills within terrain.

 

[Poxous]

Remember dwarves can have one of 8th ed best magic Def. They get +2 to dispel I think and +3 DD for a runelore. Also they can have 3 dispel runes or 2 and a destroy rune. Magic is not gonna win you games unless you get that anvil asap.

 

[datalink7]

Field wraiths and kill his artillery since dwarves don't have many choices to do them harm

He's using Thorek, thats Ancient Power on a 3+ with one re-roll, so 2D6 S4 magical hits on D3 of your units each turn, and halved movement. That's before the Grudge Throwers and magical Grapeshot. Wraiths ain't the way to go. Blood Knights with Flag of Blood Keep are a better bet, my Dwarfs hate 'em.

I recommend a melee Lord and a second caster with Beasts. Vamp Lord with Savage Beast of Horros can do horrendous damage and Dwarfs generally don't have tooled up melee characters capable of standing up to him, certainly not in gunlines. Hatred + Red Fury + Sword of +3 Attacks + Savage Beast is utter filth and will remove 15+ Dwarfs in one go.

Ghoulkin is nice, as is Purple Sun spam (auto-kills Thorek as the Anvil is a war machine). He's bringing the cheese (Thorek), so should you. Maybe try Mannfred, he is horrible now.

also Dwarfs like to steal 2 of our PD every turn

How is he stealing 2 of your dice? Master Rune of Balance is just that, a Master Rune, ie he can only have one.

he doesnt like to get them into combat because they are crap at fighting.

Heh, he not using Warrior blocks with great weapons? They are the mutt's nuts in 8th. My Dwarfs run 3x24 warriors, they eat most units quickly, as long as they're backed up by shooting. The elites are pretty worthless now.

I agree with much of what you said except that "The Elites are pretty much worthless now". I have run Hammerers to great effect. Stubborn, immune to fear and terror, and WS5 S6 are very effective. I also run two blocks of 30 Warriors with great weapons. They hit very hard.

 

[Johnny B]

Yeah, I do still run 18 Hammerers, mainly just for the Stubborn. I have a Thane with Master Rune of Challenge who pulls nasty targets into them, away from my war machines. The difference in damage output between them and the Core seems so very small now though. And Ironbreakers are really disappointing in 8th. In the next Dwarf book, I reckon they'll get some big buffs to make them more tempting.

 

[Humaneater]

By the way, can I ask how many points this is? I've seen so many people trying to field Thorek in 2000 points, so many of them 'don't realise' that they only get 500 pts on Lords; Thorek is 505.