Flanking units needed

[Loempiaketzer]

So, how do YOU plan to negate the enemys ranks/steadfast? Im planning on making a 'no hard CC' list with vampires, but taking the lore of beasts to boosts units whereever i need them. Using a unit of Black knights as my hammer (with included WK) to do most of the dmg. For the rest, beefed up ghouls to do some dmg, a varwhulf and static combat rez skeletons. Now i have some points to spare. Best option to get 2 ranks in the flank of my enemy would still be

DIRE WOLVES! At 15 wolves a pack. I know. Its a big unit. (5*3) but it moves the fastest in our army and if you get 5 models against non frenzied or chaos warriors and the like, the opponent should only manage to kill max 5 i hope THUS negating his ranks. and the 5 casualties should work fine since you get +1 charge +1flank +max3 for no rankbonus for the enemy. and the biggest benefit would be no steadfast for theoposing unit!

Please share thoughts on making cheap, fast and effective flankers. We all think wolves got a lot worse, but imho, their still the fastest arround that can negate flanks. (for sure in our army) and maybe even in the world of warhammer fantasy! (no clue what other armys got these days)

 

[Count Darvaleth]

They can only negate enemy ranks if they have more ranks than them, I believe. If you haven't "disrupted" the enemy then they get their rank bonus. So unless you plan to field a unit of 20 wolves, then no. (Although using a Beasts spell on them making them good....perhaps....)

 

[Kalandros]

Go back to your rule book, you'll notice that Steadfast CANNOT be removed by disrupting (breaking ranks) the unit.

Steadfast is lost in woods and rivers as well as when you have more ranks than your opponent, so you gotta bring infantry or very killy stuff.

 

[Loempiaketzer]

hmmm that sucks.
possible to 'magic' some forests on their heads with lore of nature-boy-5000?
oke, so, what do we need to get a decent flankattack that actually benefits us in combat?
we still get the +1 flank +1 charge bonus and enemy doesnt get +1-3 rankbonus?

what would you guys suggest?
flankcharges have always been my main weapon of choise. so, im fishing into something new/how to use them nowadays.

please discuss/ spitball about this matter

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Go back to your rule book, you'll notice that Steadfast CANNOT be removed by disrupting (breaking ranks) the unit.

Steadfast is lost in woods and rivers as well as when you have more ranks than your opponent, so you gotta bring infantry or very killy stuff.

Rank bonus only removed by an enemy with more ranks, right? (I can't access my rulebook atm )

On topic, varghulfs really. You will never break the ranks, but you get +1 for flanking on top of any kills you make, plus they will only be able to get a small number of attacks back on your lovely varghulf.

 

[Ophidicus]

Steadfast & rank bonus are different, if a 4-rank unit is flanked by a 2-rank unit, it will lose its rank bonus, but will still be steadfast.

 

[Loempiaketzer]

now thats clear, lets continue with the matter!

so, wolves should be awesome to assist with dealing with static combat rez monsterunits (up to BSB units with not that much hittingpower)
at only 120 points for 15 wolves, this should be a good investment no?

 

[witchking1980]

Playtest them and if you see some results then tell us too

120 points could be invested in another equipped WK but that's a different story

 

[Ophidicus]

Ideally you need a big ranked unit with big static CR, say, 30 skeletons (assuming a 1500-2000pt battle) in the front with a ranked unit charging the flank, 10 models is the bare minimum, 15 is better, so yes, I think Dire Wolves would be suitable for this. Ghouls would also be good (& they're my preference for flankers until I get more dead pups) because of their masses of poisoned attacks, best for stripping ranks from large, light infantry units. DWs have a much longer charge distance though, so are more flexible, a DW unit positioned well could potentially charge two different units, giving you a choice. Choice is good.

 

[witchking1980]

Ideally you need a big ranked unit with big static CR, say, 30 skeletons (assuming a 1500-2000pt battle) in the front with a ranked unit charging the flank, 10 models is the bare minimum, 15 is better, so yes, I think Dire Wolves would be suitable for this. Ghouls would also be good (& they're my preference for flankers until I get more dead pups) because of their masses of poisoned attacks, best for stripping ranks from large, light infantry units. DWs have a much longer charge distance though, so are more flexible, a DW unit positioned well could potentially charge two different units, giving you a choice. Choice is good.

Indeed wolves movement gives mobility and most of the times they can select where they will charge. Ghouls are a good choice for flanking (I bring 30 of these fellows) and a large GG unit with GW can flank breaking the first unit and then picking enemy units in line. I did that yesterday against Orcs.

 

[Alfika]

What is needed is zombie units to charge in with VHD after other units have charged in, in this way you can clip charge them in next to a hammer unit to negate as many attacks back on them as possibly. I think this will be our best use of cheap zombies (the only unit we can increase with necromancers). When I field vampires they will have forbidden lore with buff spells (beast mainly).
The same can be done for flank attacks where you position or raise them so only on model will touch when you VHD charge with them.

 

[RedDuke]

Units of 15+ zombies in 4-wide ranks are good flankers of troops with only one attack, especially in waves from the second round onwards. they can take max 6 hits (most often 5 though) and take +1 for charge, +1/2 for flank/rear and disrupt a +3 rank bonus. With the new rules they can finally add something positive to the combat result. As anvils on the front, instead, they may lose enough to make our elite units die of crumbling...
Will we be using small units of zombies as hammers? :lol:

 

[Ophidicus]

More like (fleshy) tongs. Everyone thinks about the hammer & anvil, nobody remembers the third really useful tool which stops you burning your hand.

 

[Deadseed]

AFAIK a unit will not deny ranks unless it has two full ranks of 5, so the zombies would not be able to be 4 wide.

 

[RedDuke]

Isn'it ten models now?

 

[Alfika]

no 2 ranks of 5 or more models. Example you can have 7 wide first rank and 5 models in the second rank and break your opponents ranks but keep in mind that breaking ranks are counted after all combat is done not as in 7th in the start of it.

 

[RedDuke]

mh, so watch out for deep units that can make more than 5 attacks... :O
Should not be great warriors, though