Forbidden Lore(s)

[zanthodin]

So you take a Vampire Lord and give him Forbiden Lore, but which Lore would you take? Would you stick with Necromancy or take one of the BRB Lores?

In a 3000 point list my Second Vampire Lord has Forbiden Lore, so I think I'd like to take one of the BRB Lores (I have enough other spell casters in the list to make good use of necromancy), but i'm struggling to decide which one.

Thoughts?

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Depends on your opponent. You get to choose for each battle don't you?

 

[Jack of Blades]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Heavens is always useful. Portent of Far is the kind of ace you're out after when your Blood Knights fluff their attacks, or you just fail to beat them by 1. You can also use Second Sign of Amul with a Wight King that has SoK and Nightshroud. It's a guaranteed killing blow, really, guaranteed.

I'd say take Heavens. Fire and Beasts are useful if you want to make a combat monster (or several).

Death and Light are fun if you're giving everyone 2 Power Stones (even your Lord) and mounting them on Hellsteeds.

 

[zanthodin]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

My opponents tend to be Elves (All three kinds), Empire and Tomb Kings.

I could see Heavens being usefull, if only to see the look on my brother's face (he plays High Elves and always takes Heavens with at least one mage). I'm not a big fan of the lore of Fire, I think the lore of Metal tends to out-do it. I can't remember the lore of Beasts very well (I'm at my uni digs and won't see my BRB untill the 29th when I go home), are it's higher level spells any good?

 

[Jack of Blades]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Beasts? I don't like it. It has its uses, but overall, I just don't like it.

Heavens useful? Heavens will make him wet his pants! Got a hill where he put his ranged battery? Comet! Dragon Princes? Uranon's Thunderbolt! Swordmasters? Forked Lightning! etc.

Against Empire, I'd imagine the Comet to be very useful as well, as they tend to be tightly packed AFAIK. Celestial Shield can also help your unit getting across the table unscathed, and it's a free Banner of Blood Keep.

Tomb Kings will likely be hurt more by Lore of Light. Cleansing Flare with multiple characters on Hellsteeds with 2 Power Stones each will mutilate them (this isn't list tailoring! it works against basically everything... if you try it, please bring a Brep =). But just watch your Elven friend's face when his T3, expensive units are assaulted by D6 S5 hits! You should though, bring a single guy with Lore of Heavens for Uranon's Thunderbolt against Dragon Princes and the general usefulness of that lore.

Then again, you could always use my good ol' creation... The Opera! Give every character 2 Power Stones and Lore of Death, bring two units of Cairn Wraiths with Banshees. Does he have a unit of Dragon Princes? cast D&D! on them until you've got one through. Then focus both units on them. On average (IIRC they're ld 9), they'll take three casualties per Banshee. Keep in mind that this is only on average, which means it can get better, and if you really want to annihilate them, get 2 D&D!'s through on them.

This one is also amusing. First, move the Fell Bats within 6'' of the enemy General's unit. Now cast 2 D&D!'s on it and cast Walking Death on the Fell Bats. Panic, and then you chase it down with the Fell Bats (or a backup-unit of Fell Bats if the first one got charged, etc.).

Then again, DP's might be Immune to Psychology in which case D&D! won't work. But, they hopefully aren't.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

I have two vamps with forbidden lore, one hero for fluff as he is meant to be almost a beast and therefore will always choose Lore of Beasts for Bear's Anger, course it has nothing to do with the fact if it goes through he has 6 S7 attacks!

My Lord like mentioned above will be tailored to my opponent, the above mentioned Heavens is great which is why most people who have the choice take but there are other options:

Lore of Metal will make Dwarfs and Brets very worried - These generally heavily armoured troops don't too well against Spirit of the Forge and as they both have some really nasty magic items for combatting the Undead the Law of Gold is priceless.

Lore of fire is not really a favorite of mine except against one opponent - Wood elves, for obvious reasons, they have a few flammable troops plus a Lord with the FSoR is one pretty much guaranteed way of taking out an ancient treemen if the lord gets the charge, if you've also got a support caster with Vanhels even better has you'l get 7 S8 attacks hitting on 2+ that you can re-roll, as the treeman is flammable there's a good chance you'll cause 8 if the not the full 10 wounds. Also nice is the Wall of fire as this can stop a unit in thier tracks unless they want every model to take a hit.

Lore of Shadows is great against Lizardmen mainly because of the Pit of Shades on a Slann, casting this will definately draw out the dispel scrolls. I also really like the Steed of Shadows, for an army that can be destroyed by the death of a general having the ability to whisk him out of combat if you realise he's going to die is priceless.

Lore of Light I would only take against other vamps / Tomb Kings / an all daemon army.

Death is a pretty good all rounder but best at Skaven & greenskins as thier low Ld combined Doom and Darkness is great for all your terror / fear tests and Banshees Howl

 

[marshal torrick]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

I've been having a lot of fun just throwing curse of years on the opponent's main unit. Lots of fun that one. I may try heavens one of these days.

 

[mannfred]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

I find Lore of Beats really good (mistake intended).

1st spell-Nasty combat monster
2nd spell-admittedly a waste
3rd spell-3d6 strength 2 hits are good for Skirmishers and other light troops
4th spell-Don't need to worry about that Star Dragon anymore
5th spell-Bolt thrower is always handy
6th spell-2d6" additional movement on top of Van Hels.

Death and Heavens would be my next choices but I still like this better.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Moved to tactics

I think Vampires is still one of the best bets though if forced to 'change' I would probably go with Beasts or Metal.

 

[Incognito]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

I myself have been using Lore of Death with the new rules and it is quiet effective, ahh drain life against four inrange units of Knights of the Realm.

 

[ACe]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

I find Lore of Beats really good (mistake intended).

1st spell-Nasty combat monster
2nd spell-admittedly a waste
3rd spell-3d6 strength 2 hits are good for Skirmishers and other light troops
4th spell-Don't need to worry about that Star Dragon anymore
5th spell-Bolt thrower is always handy
6th spell-2d6" additional movement on top of Van Hels.

Death and Heavens would be my next choices but I still like this better.

How come my rulebook says that the crow's feast causes 2d6 S3 hits?

 

[Grish]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Then again, you could always use my good ol' creation... The Opera! Give every character 2 Power Stones and Lore of Death, bring two units of Cairn Wraiths with Banshees. Does he have a unit of Dragon Princes? cast D&D! on them until you've got one through. Then focus both units on them. On average (IIRC they're ld 9), they'll take three casualties per Banshee. Keep in mind that this is only on average, which means it can get better, and if you really want to annihilate them, get 2 D&D!'s through on them.

I didn't think D&D worked with a Banshee. My interpretation is the Banshee is a LD based attack and D&D affects LD based tests.

 

[ACe]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

True, D&D only affects Ld-tests. So it doesn't work with the Ghostly Howl. Against High Elves: Heavens. So have I been taught.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Leadership-based tests are described on page 5 of BRB. The Banshee Scream is not a Leadership Test as described there.

It's a pass/fail thing, whiich the scream is not.

 

[Grish]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Does the Skaven strength in numbers rule now apply to Banshees? I had read it did although I'm not sure why.

 

[ACe]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

As I remember it: The the strength in numbers rule states that the unit gets +1Ld for each rank (up to a max of 3). If so then they should get their bonuses against banshees as well.

 

[marshal torrick]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

At 3000 a second magic-focused Vamp Lord with Forbidden Lore would be awesome! Should your opponent hold on to dice to stop your critical Vanhel's, or do they stop you from hitting their knights with Uranon's thunderbolt or the comet from hitting their fire support section?

Lore of heavens forces some very tough choices on your opponent.

 

[Danceman]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

1st spell-Nasty combat monster
2nd spell-admittedly a waste
3rd spell-3d6 strength 2 hits are good for Skirmishers and other light troops
4th spell-Don't need to worry about that Star Dragon anymore
5th spell-Bolt thrower is always handy
6th spell-2d6" additional movement on top of Van Hels.

Yepp, Lore of Beasts is one of my favourites too. Not only are they nice spells but also pretty low casting value as well, which goes hand in hand with our magic phase.

I´m quite fond of Lore of Death too.

 

[N.I.B]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Lore of fire is not really a favorite of mine except against one opponent - Wood elves, for obvious reasons, they have a few flammable troops plus a Lord with the FSoR is one pretty much guaranteed way of taking out an ancient treemen if the lord gets the charge, if you've also got a support caster with Vanhels even better has you'l get 7 S8 attacks hitting on 2+ that you can re-roll, as the treeman is flammable there's a good chance you'll cause 8 if the not the full 10 wounds. Also nice is the Wall of fire as this can stop a unit in thier tracks unless they want every model to take a hit.

The flammable troops (only Treekin and Treeman) aren't very likely to get hurt at all by our flame spells. And you have to charge the Treeman before you know whether your Flaming Sword will be dispelled or not. Only a complete newbie would allow you to cast it, and unlike necromancy spells you can't cast it again if you fail.

I'd rather take Vampire, Metal or Heavens (Comet) against Wood Elves.

 

[mannfred]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

I find Lore of Beats really good (mistake intended).

1st spell-Nasty combat monster
2nd spell-admittedly a waste
3rd spell-3d6 strength 2 hits are good for Skirmishers and other light troops
4th spell-Don't need to worry about that Star Dragon anymore
5th spell-Bolt thrower is always handy
6th spell-2d6" additional movement on top of Van Hels.

Death and Heavens would be my next choices but I still like this better.

How come my rulebook says that the crow's feast causes 2d6 S3 hits?

Yep, bloody dyslexia strikes again, still 1 cheaper than Gaze of Nagash but I guess I would rather have the extra strength.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Strength in numbers applies because Alessio said so on the GW site. The base leadership of the Skaven is affected for anything leadership based so the Howl is affected.

 

[Count Brambleten]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

well, from the sound of this i will be going back to heavens after not using at all during a time where my High Magic destroys lots, compared to my skink priests never getting the right spell (my best memory is of casting celestial shield on my carnosaur and then deflecting 2 big bolts from DE RBTs) however, this doesnt sound like much of a problem if you know every spell. if you give a vamp a different lore, does he still get IoN? its just that HEs only get Drain Magic if they use High Magic (or at least thats the way i read it).

 

[Skillmatic11]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Yes your Vamp still get IoN...its in the rule explanation of Forbidden Lore...

 

[Count Brambleten]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

oh, didnt see it there, thanks a lot

 

[Reign]

RE: Forbiden Lore(s)

Only a complete newbie would allow you to cast it, and unlike necromancy spells you can't cast it again if you fail.

Yes you can. You can cast it unsuccessfully as many times as you have dice for. You cannot successfully cast it more than once a magic phase. If it is dispelled by dice or scroll, it was not successful.