Forbidden Lore & the VC

[Belladamma Voltaire]

Greetings one and all,

The new Vampire Counts have access to something they have never had access to before - nearly every basic magical lore in the game (except Life). In the past we've only had access to the Lore of Death but now thanks to Forbidden Lore we can have any single lore in its entirety.

Now, which Lore would you choose with this new ability and why?

I would personally go with the wonderful Lore of Shadows because I have been employing it to some effect with my Chaos forces for some time. The Pit of Shades may well be the VCs only hope of toppling the Slann Mage Priest, for example.

How about you?

- V

 

[Loekhi]

I´m thinking about a vampire with fire lore and rhuin´s fire sword =D (+2 fu and at could be unbeatable)

 

[Dreske]

One of mine is definitely running with Lore of Beasts. Bears Anger (I think it's called). +3 attacks, +2 str and +1 T coupled with a couple trinkets and Vamp abilities will be ruining someones day very soon.

 

[rabz98]

One of mine is definitely running with Lore of Beasts.

flying vamps with 8 str 7 att and red fury:|... omg!!

 

[heinrich von carstein]

problem is that bears anger is VERY easy to dispel. I would personally go with lore of heavens.
think about all the re-rolls you could get!!!

 

[Cromenon]

Mmm... I am taking definetly forbidden lore & master of the dark arts. Having a level 5 vampire is sweet

But... what lore to choose?

The ones more appealing to me are:

Shadows. Not only for PoS, but also for Unseen Lurker (Game-deciding spell). Shame it is only 12" though...
Also, Shades of Death can be nasty if you want to unleash a terror bomb...

Metal. ¿Problems with that threatening cannon? Commandment of brass (6+!!!). "OMG Chaoz Chosenz Knightzorz!!one1" No problem. Spirit of the forge, anyone?. Or what about that fearsome unit of sword masters? With Transmutation of Lead, they are don't seem so good...
(Dude, this lore is sweet. I cannot find a spell on it I don't like)

Fire. Flaming sword of Rhuin is nasty, Wallfire is the best choice against horde chargers... Very offensive, I like it.

Beasts. The Bear's Anger. Not much to say . Also, the beast cowers can be handy against enemy cavalry/chariots. The Wolf Hunts is a nice spell, however Danse Macabre is in my view, better, since it is more reliable, however this spell has a range of 24", although can be cast only on cavalry units/chariots/monsters and it is much more random... mmm, decisions, decisions...
The Crow's feast is meh, and the hunter's spear is nice, an autohitting BT at an 8+ is quite good.

 

[The Dead of Night]

Well I have wished we had access to shadow for some time (and wondering why we didn't), though the potential for combat wizards like vampires to eat... well pretty much anything with lore of beasts is awesome, + there is still some good tactical spells in that lore.

The best part though, is that we can have multiple vampires with multiple lores and really maximize strategical potential.

I mean it's just like having empire wizards, except you swap life for necromancy, get all the spells, and rock in combat. RAWR!

My poor opponents will be facing different magical lores in different games, they wont know what to expect!! And how sweet are the rumoured rules for mannfred? We will be one of the best magical armies in the game imo, I'm really looking forward to it.

P.S. I play Necrarch

 

[Arion]

If only there was lore of khaine....... , I would choose beasts since it has many nifty tricks, or shadows because of its magic missiles and the movement spell.

 

[N.I.B]

Slann: Lore of Shadows. Had a game a month ago, where the Slann past his I test unfortunately. I still won, of course
I could see Pit of Shades used against Chaos Dragons too.
And Shadow has the gamewinning movement spells, can be good against most armies.

Bretts - I would stick to the Lore of Vampires. Nothing scares a Bret player as lots of large Undead blocks.

Skaven - Lore of Vampires. Winds of Undeath can pluck the tooth (Ratling Guns, small PWG and Gutter Runner units) out of the army. And the necromancy spells are just awesome against Skaven, chances are high that you will have to replenish your forces a lot.

Tomb Kings - I'd stick to Lore of Vampires. 'Cause it's bound to become a war of attrition.

Wood Elves - I can see several good choices here, lore of Heavens to rain down some meteors on those annoying woods, lore of Fire for good damage spells with extra potential against Treeman/Treekin and the cool Sword of Rhuin. Lore of Beasts to catch them with Bears Anger and Beast Covers. Lore of Vampires can be good too, especially Winds of Undeath - very risky to have Alters and spellsinger/weavers taking picnics on their own. Even the threat of it can be enough to give you more control over enemy movement.

High Elves - all lores with a lot of damage spells are good. Except fire of course (as everyone walks around with the no-brainer Dragon Armour).

Empire - Lore of Metal, if he goes with the usual Waltar + STanks + knights.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

N.I.B

Does Wind of Undeath make Ratling Guns and Warpfire Throwers take the 4+ save as well? (You implied so in your post)
If it does we may have a way of busting those boys which isn't entirely based around a Banshee!

My gravest concern (pun intended) is that forbidden lore is going to become a bit of a no-brainer as between this spell and the Necromancers abilities to upgrade to include VDM mean our magic phase is going to become very predictable very quickly.

 

[N.I.B]

Yes, every enemy unit takes a wound on 4+, no armour saves allowed. Hard to cast though, for a lvl 2.

My gravest concern (pun intended) is that forbidden lore is going to become a bit of a no-brainer as between this spell and the Necromancers abilities to upgrade to include VDM mean our magic phase is going to become very predictable very quickly.

I'm sorry but you've lost me, especially seeing that Forbidden Lore is pretty much the anti-thesis to predictability. Care to elaborate a little?

 

[Synthesis]

Personally I'd be tempted to go for beasts, for Bear's Anger if nothing else...but then again Death/Shadow are also exceptionally good ways to complement the synergy of the army as a whole.

While on the subject, has anyone noticed that you'd end up with a T7 vampire count with the Accursed Armor and Bear's Anger active at the same time? Throw in a few other goodies and you end up with a S7/T7/A8 mobile blender that ignores all S3 troops.

 

[Cromenon]

While on the subject, has anyone noticed that you'd end up with a T7 vampire count with the Accursed Armor and Bear's Anger active at the same time? Throw in a few other goodies and you end up with a S7/T7/A8 mobile blender that ignores all S3 troops.

I knew. It's a good combo, eh? StarDragon Vamp! :mrgreen:

 

[thewrathchilde]

the issue I see is that if you take one of the other lores then you caster isn't supporting his army as well as he should be/could be using necromancy.....however, if it proves to be correct that you get invocation even when taking another lore then this won't be as applicable. The other problem I have with it is that unless you are taking it on a Lord then even though your Vamp might know a whole lot of spells he isn't going to be able to cast the high-end spells only being a level one.......and the low-end spells he casts aren't going to be that difficult to stop with him only being able to throw two dice at them.

Where I think Forbidden Lore really comes into its own is with a Lord taking Necromancy as it assures him all the spells he needs and still gives him the benefits of supporting his army, creating units, etc.

WC

 

[Synthesis]

You do still get IoN when choosing Forbidden Lore, in addition to you're other 6 spells ... just to confirm that one.

The main benefit of this power is 'utility' for the hero level vampire, it allows you to adapt your magic to suit the opponent rather than being predicatable, even if it's only the low level spells. You can get steed of shadows to save your caster-lord from a crisly demise, rule of burning iron to deal with that bloody chosen knight of khorne champion before your lord wastes the unit or turn your already hard lord into a mobile version of the Blendtec Blender with bear's anger, all while still being able to heal the guy's bodyguard unit.

On the issue of not being hard to stop - you've got to consider the sheer force of the magic phase being levelled at your opponent (assuming you're one of the magically biased bloodsuckers here), most opponents I've discussed this power with would rather limit the ability of the VC player to support/expand their army that be scared of such minor spells.

A lord with it proves to be a totally different kettle of fish however, as he can cause some REAL damage with the proper lore to suit the opponent ... however you'd most likely only see this in games of 2k or more, with another vampire supporting the army while the Forbidden Lore one immolates various Grail Knight units or drops Burning Head on goblins.

 

[N.I.B]

The problem with Forbidden Lore on vampires, is that they can only be lvl 1 if they take it. So they probably wont be casting any spell except the first, with decent success. Which means that you're wasting the potential of the power, and that you have payed a lot of points for just one or two spells.

 

[Zombieneko]

Can't you have flying and forbidden lore at the same time?

Strigoi indeed

 

[Grish]

@Zombie: There are two vampires, counts and thralls. Counts can have 100pts worth, and so can get Forbidden Lore and flying, and Thralls can have 50pts worth and so can't.

Someone was mentioning using Lore of Beasts on multiple characters, which we argued that they would only be lvl 1 casters and so would only be able to cast the 1st level spell, and it would cost a lot of their bloodline powers to do it. (In fact I don't think they could take anything else).

 

[Zombieneko]

Hmm,
Thx for the info mon'

Flying MSU-hunter then ^_^

 

[Dreske]

@Zombie: There are two vampires, counts and thralls. Counts can have 100pts worth, and so can get Forbidden Lore and flying, and Thralls can have 50pts worth and so can't.

Someone was mentioning using Lore of Beasts on multiple characters, which we argued that they would only be lvl 1 casters and so would only be able to cast the 1st level spell, and it would cost a lot of their bloodline powers to do it. (In fact I don't think they could take anything else).

Forbidden Lore does not cost so much that they would not be able to use any other powers.

 

[Grish]

I suppose you could take one of the abilities from the Master list but that's it. So it doesn't take all your bloodline powers, just almost all of them.

 

[Grish]

From what I've seen, I think magic heavy VC lists will be the way to go in Tournaments, and this will be a key ability for flexibility. Add in skullstaff and +2 PD, and you have yourself an extremely powerful magic phase.

 

[Lord Fear]

I also think that is the case, and I also think it is a bit of a shame. Just as the new High Elves' pereceived main strength was countered by people taking lots more chariots and shooting, the Vampire Counts' perceived main strength will be countered by people taking more magic defence and dispel scrolls. Which will then mean people attempting to make a balanced, medium power magical build will suffr a hell of a lot.

I fully expect a regular High Elf opponent of mine to take the Vortex Shard the first time I use new Vampire Counts against him. I don't mind those kinds of magic items though, ending a magic phase outright is a bit more interesting to me

 

[Tal Rasha]

Voltaire,

Yes, it makes ALL units take the test. I killed a ratling, a warpfire thrower and a lightning gun all with a unit of bats. No need for magic! As for the no brainer, if you are going Lore of Vampires, I can see Dark Acolyte winning out over Forbidden Lore. Having a level 4 vamp is better IMO than having access to the whole college. My last game I spent most of the time trying unsuccessfully to cast IoN over and over as my opponent dispelled them. I tried wind of death once, but realized it just wasn't going to happen, and actually got a danse off only once, near the end of the game. The point is, I never used 90% of the spells in the college. At level 4, at least you'll have 4 of the 6 spells, plus IoN, which seems good enough for me.

If you are not going Lore of Vampire, then obviously you will need Forbidden Lore. Right now, I am enjoying my Vampire Lore too much to try anything else. But that is what I love most about the new VCs. The variations throughout the whole army that you can create is so much fun!

Forbidden Lore does not cost so much that they would not be able to use any other powers.

Yeah, pretty much it does. If you are a Vampire, not a Count, then the only other power you can take after that would be Lord of the Dead or other Master series. But that would be pointless, IMO.

I also think that is the case, and I also think it is a bit of a shame. Just as the new High Elves' pereceived main strength was countered by people taking lots more chariots and shooting, the Vampire Counts' perceived main strength will be countered by people taking more magic defence and dispel scrolls. Which will then mean people attempting to make a balanced, medium power magical build will suffr a hell of a lot.

Not necessarily. I say this because there have always been armies with a strong magic phase (Slaan, TK, HE, etc.). The idea that suddenly everyone will be taking DSs to beat us is only applicable if they know our list and prepare for it ahead of time. The point its, 4 dispel scrolls is common in tournaments now, and that won't change because of the VC. Besides, we don't have to rely on magic like the TK do. We can make a very strong fighty list instead.

 

[Lord Fear]

4 scrolls is common, but I think it'll be more than common from now on, especially with all the "yeah so i took 800 power dice and my opponent gave up on turn 3" battle reports that are going around now.