General Tactics

[Galacticz]

So most army forums have a nice big old thread that discuss the army's capabilities and such, underlining each unit and providing sufficient tactics for it all.

I notice we have a nice big old thread like the such right here, jammed packed with more information than I have ever seen. However, It seems, just by skimming over everything that the information is quite dated, especially since we are packing a new book and much much much has changed.

Thing is, I want to probably start up VC. To be honest, I love their models more than any other army out there, besides maybe OnG; but I don't know diddly about how to play them. Especially how to maneuver their special rules, Unstable in particular.

Most armies are pretty much straight forward with tactics, many of which revolve around hammer and anvil. It seems like VC can tarpit like no body's business, but not through durability, but attrition. We bring our boys back from the dead (I think thats bad ass). But because of Unstable, we would be losing lots of models each combat; meaning, if a hammer was in that fight, with our zombie/skele anvil, it seems our opponents could continue to kick them senseless, and thus kill the pricey unit of Blood Knights you just flanked them with, without directing a single attack towards them.

This, in its self leaves me scratching my chin. Do I just tarpit and forget, and on the off chance my pit dies, charge them in their semi weakened state? It all seems so strange.

But yes, back to the original point, does our general tactics page pack the information i need that is relevant to the new book and situations?

TL;DR: We have an awesome tactics page, seems out of date though, how do you maneuver the army and deal with unstable?

Thanks!

 

[Galacticz]

Does no one have advice to this new fangling?

 

[Vampire Ron]

Not an expert speaking here but:
I believe it is generally accepted that whatever you do, don't do multiple combats with one of our specials and skellies/zombies. I've found I can use Ghouls in multiple combats, but I wouldn't fancy having Grave Guard or Blood Knights in the same combat as Skeletons or Zombies. This I feelis our greatest weakness, not being able to deny steadfast very easily. The only troop that can effectively do this (to my knowledge) is GG, but most people (including me) play them as a horde. With maneuvering, I've always gone for the good old fashionedd 'stumble slowly towards the enemy'.
Probably not the best or most sound advice out there, but I hope I helped.

 

[Galacticz]

Probably not the best or most sound advice out there, but I hope I helped.

Ron, your advice is graciously accepted and greatly appreciated. I am just trying to learn how to use this army, so that I can become a better player!

Side question for you however sir, are you aware if that massive tactics link i posted in my above post is still relevant? A more complete breakdown of everything dealing with an army, I have never seen. It would be heartbreaking if the majority of that information was actually quite dated and no longer useful.

 

[Total_Eclipse34]

Hi I was hoping someone could help me with an army list for vampire count 1000pts. I just want to know what would be good to have in an army list and when I have my army list I am going to go and buy the things on it thanks for your help if u reply.

 

[Galacticz]

Hi I was hoping someone could help me with an army list for vampire count 1000pts. I just want to know what would be good to have in an army list and when I have my army list I am going to go and buy the things on it thanks for your help if u reply.

Bro, Its usually pretty impolite to blatantly hijack someone's thread. You should look around and see if another thread answers any of your questions, or make your own...

 

[Vampire Ron]

Probably not the best or most sound advice out there, but I hope I helped.

Ron, your advice is graciously accepted and greatly appreciated. I am just trying to learn how to use this army, so that I can become a better player!

Side question for you however sir, are you aware if that massive tactics link i posted in my above post is still relevant? A more complete breakdown of everything dealing with an army, I have never seen. It would be heartbreaking if the majority of that information was actually quite dated and no longer useful.

Skimming through, there are bits and bobs here and there that could be useful, but most of it is redundant due to rule changes and such.

 

[Galacticz]

Skimming through, there are bits and bobs here and there that could be useful, but most of it is redundant due to rule changes and such.

I understand, I really appreciate your help Ron! And I figured as much. Reading through some of it, I see many posts from, on average, around 3-4 years ago. And lots of information referencing the previous book.

But yeah man, I really appreciate you trying to help me out!

Does anyone else have any pointers or tactics to help a fledgling VC player?

 

[countwuzzy]

Every game I've won in 8th is due to my combat tooled/vampire lord, killing whole units, by himself. He of course was in a unit. They just didn't do much. I like him in black knights, if an enemy challenges I accept with the bk unit champ. Who has been a lucky bugger by rolling killing blow more then a few times. I'm probably going to try this in my next tournament . Combat tooled VL in a unit of zombies. 60-80 or so strong, probably 5 wide, I feel what ever unit I get in combat with. My lord can widdle down. The rest of my army will guard the flanks.

 

[Demian]

Hello!

Well, my latest main goal for our new book has been to allocate a good threat amount to every unit in smaller games. Usually 2000pts or less.

I've found out that a Vampire hero kitted with Red Fury, Sword of Swift Slaying, Ench. Shield and Potion of Strength can balance ANY battle against other Units, even Specials and some Rares (ASF, Str 5/8 attacks, re-rolls to Hit almost against anything, added protection for Infantry aaaaand the devastating Red Fury). I usually place him in a unit of Skeletons which despite the fact that are somewhat less effective than Zombies or Ghouls (in resurrecting or hitting power) are great because of their Magical Banner (Screaming is what I use), plus they have Parry.

Thus 1 of your Core Units becomes a dangerous one, and it will divert some attention to it, allowing some more expensive Units like Terrorgheists, Hexwraiths and Grave Guards to stand a little less harassed.

So, my advice is: do not believe your Vampire Heroes are squishy, because they can kill, either in challenges or R&F enemies very very swiftly.

 

[sonova]

Every game I've won in 8th is due to my combat tooled/vampire lord, killing whole units, by himself. He of course was in a unit. They just didn't do much. I like him in black knights, if an enemy challenges I accept with the bk unit champ. Who has been a lucky bugger by rolling killing blow more then a few times. I'm probably going to try this in my next tournament . Combat tooled VL in a unit of zombies. 60-80 or so strong, probably 5 wide, I feel what ever unit I get in combat with. My lord can widdle down. The rest of my army will guard the flanks.

Not a good idea. You need the lord in full command groups just so that you can accept challenges with the champion. So zombies would be bad for that. Cheapest unit you can do this with is skeletons.

 

[countwuzzy]

I'd also consider a wraith or two in the unit to accept challenges. Think that might work?

 

[Ohcyt The Destroyer]

It sounds to me like you are looking for general strategems not the details of unit properties. Vampires play very mathmaticly. By that I mean most combats are forgone conclusions. (zombies vs . . . well anything 100pts+ = lost combat. Charging Bloodknights = win) Add to that a complete unability to run and you have what seems to be a very inflexible army. This may be true but we are also given tools that give many interesting and surprising options.

Your units should fall into one of 3 roles in a vampire army. Chaff = low pointed placements used to redirect and delay enemy troops on the field and in set up. Tarpits = zombies > skeletons. Cheap troops that can occupy the attention of enemy units for periods of time. Deploy 5 wide and as deep as you can afford. Last but certainly not least Combat Units = Hard hitting tough units designed and deployed to win combats.

Unlike many other armies we have few dual role units. You might be able to feild enough bat swarms to call it a tarpit but its probably not cost effective. Unstable mechanics make it very dangerous to combine different roles in a single combat. The discipline to wait untill it is time to make a quality winning charge is an important part of vampire strategy. Some armies avoid taking non combat oriented infantry and focus on duking it out in the middle of the map like a traditional army. Others focus on winning the deployment war, holding the middle of the map with tarpits and winning a flank with high powered fast models.


Those are the main 2 archetype strategies that keep appearing in my lists and for my models the second flanking strategy works much better. It is also much harder to counter. It involves much more delicate unit matching and good use of redirection but can be very rewarding to play.

Thoughtfull disciplined play will win you games with vampires. Stomping forward to destroy all comers can work sometimes but tacticaly flexible and prepaired enemies will cut you to ribbons and refuse to fight your ponderous high costed point consentrations. As in life it is in warhammer - it's never a good idea to fight fair!

 

[Galacticz]

Thank you all for your helpful replies!

I appreciate the advice given thus far greatly!

I do have another question, Does the strength of a VC army increase with higher points, or does it decrease? Because I know some armies do quite well at high point levels, while some do worse than others.

 

[Ohcyt The Destroyer]

In my experience vamps do well at all point levels in this edition but the lions share of my games are at 2500 which is the standard tournament point value in my area. I would think this is build dependant. Grave Guard might not do well at low point values and they need some critical mass to perform well. I find monsters at low point values are great! And we got some monsters. Etherial units are good at lower points as well. We have very good and cheap chaff which can be the deciding factore very easily at low point values. Decent cheap magic and or combo magitian/fighters help as well.

At high point values? I would expect to do very well. More toys is more toys. We can concentrate fighting power and points very well so with decent generalship should win alot of games.

 

[Galacticz]

Hey, I was just doing some hard thinking.

Now although we are unique in taking unstable wounds, wouldn't this issue of multiple combats span a lionshare of armies who use the tarpit/hammer flank tactic?

Skaven, OnG, Brets, Empire, I could go on. Yes their BSB does more for them, but if A unit of GG are tarpit by a unit of Skaven Slaves, then rammed into by a unit of Plague Monks, Grave Guard still tear the Slaves to pieces, Win combat and Now he has a large chance of losing both his Monks and Slave to break tests at -X Ld.

Yes our core isn't great at combat, but its great at Staying power. So what makes us different from these other armies. I understand circumstances are different, but risk and reward, risk and reward. Everyone has them pertaining to this subject. Maybe they dont get shredded by additional unsavable wounds, but they have a decent chance to lose an entire unit, and possibly others due to panic.

 

[sonova]

Hey, I was just doing some hard thinking.

Now although we are unique in taking unstable wounds, wouldn't this issue of multiple combats span a lionshare of armies who use the tarpit/hammer flank tactic?

Skaven, OnG, Brets, Empire, I could go on. Yes their BSB does more for them, but if A unit of GG are tarpit by a unit of Skaven Slaves, then rammed into by a unit of Plague Monks, Grave Guard still tear the Slaves to pieces, Win combat and Now he has a large chance of losing both his Monks and Slave to break tests at -X Ld.

Yes our core isn't great at combat, but its great at Staying power. So what makes us different from these other armies. I understand circumstances are different, but risk and reward, risk and reward. Everyone has them pertaining to this subject. Maybe they dont get shredded by additional unsavable wounds, but they have a decent chance to lose an entire unit, and possibly others due to panic.

Yes, but finding a skaven player silly enough to charge into a combat involving a slavepit is a different kettle of fish. Also they would be steadfast since its unlikely that you will field GG in numbers sufficient to outnumber slaves, even if their monks didnt negate your ranks.

 

[Galacticz]

Oh yes, I forgot about Steadfast. And that does nothing for us, does it?

Seriously, Undead could've used a boost in the usefulness of steadfast and the BSB/General's presence..

 

[sonova]

All our units have steadfast regardless of how badly we are outnumbered. Thats pretty huge.

 

[Total_Eclipse34]

Hi I was hoping someone could help me with an army list for vampire count 1000pts. I just want to know what would be good to have in an army list and when I have my army list I am going to go and buy the things on it thanks for your help if u reply.

Bro, Its usually pretty impolite to blatantly hijack someone's thread. You should look around and see if another thread answers any of your questions, or make your own...

Ok sorry

 

[Chaos_Born]

I've got to agree with the first post that Ohcyt did, everything there was good advice. Although I like to put emphasis on the chaff bit; chaff is the greatest part of the vampires game. You can (and should) easily field 5/6 units of chaff and take advantage of the myriad uses that they have: picking what you want to line up against in deployment, parking in front of tricky units at funny angles so they basically don't move for a turn, assassinate wizards in units (with a little magic support), flooding war machines, the list goes on...

Also the tar pitting opportunities with vampires are fantastic, with an equal number of point worth of zombies you can hold units for turns on end while you arrange your battle line to how you wish. This is the great tactic of the vampires, ruthlessly control the game with your chaff and tarpits while your 3 or 4 units that can kill stuff (grave guard, character knight buses, blood knights, monstrous stuff etc) gang up on what few units the enemy can control and wreck their faces. Sure we may have to spend a lot of points on stuff that can't do a lot of damage (our core section) but that is a blessing, not a curse.

As for what you're saying about our lack of benefit from leadership rules, this is a case of not being allowed to have it all. To compensate for our epic battlefield control, we have little shooting and don't get anything from the typical rules of armies. I don't complain though, because we have a cool army of unwavering troops, characters made of chainsaws and the best looking character model in the whole game (krell).

If you are still undecided then you should certainly collect vampires. The best part of it is, the vampire counts forum is the best army forum on the web

 

[Galacticz]

Chaos, I most definitively agree. This community is excellent.

At first, thinking about the limitations that VC possessed discouraged me. But the more I think about it, the versatility and troop options we possess make us pretty damn epic. (However, I feel like its stupid that Vampires don't allow undead to march anymore..) But we always have Dance for that.

I think I am going to attempt to write up a 1250 point list and test my options.

Anyone have any more tippers?

 

[Ohcyt The Destroyer]

Pro tip: any unit with the "Vampiric" rule can march. Any unit led by a model with "Vampiric" can therefore march.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Pro tip: any unit with the "Vampiric" rule can march. Any unit led by a model with "Vampiric" can therefore march.

I thought the opposite was the case in the new book. Vamp = can March unless they join a unit. Then just General's March bubble applies.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Pro tip: any unit with the "Vampiric" rule can march. Any unit led by a model with "Vampiric" can therefore march.

Pro Tip: Reread that section


I guess I should weigh in here. While I respect the comunities opinions on our book I find we are far from static. There are some blaring donts (putting zombies in with any other friendly unit) but we are more flexible than we are given credit for.

Bar Dark Elves we have the best close range shooting in the game.

We have the best chaff drops in the game that because of a rule scare the piss out of people.

Yes we can not all march but we are not a combat army, we are a combo army and marching up in someones grill does not a combo army make.

Why are you saying our LD is a problem? Unless you are fighting Caskets, Banshees or one Tzeentch spell it really should not matter. Also we have cheap as dirt heros with LD 9... LD is our strong suit if you need it to be.

Over all I think some people are too obsessed with what the book can not bring to the party and ignore the vast amounts of things that it can.

Just my two cents