Ghoul King Outclassed?

[Vipoid]

My most common opponents include Chaos Daemons and Warriors of Chaos.

When I look at the Bloodthirsters, WoC Daemon Princes, DoC Daemon Princes and many of the special characters in those armies, my SGK (or Vampire Lord) start to feel outclassed.

Basically, I was just wondering if anyone else feels like this. And, if so, how do you deal with it?

I ask because I often have the temptation to kit my SGK out with extra stuff, such as Quickblood (to counter the ASF and/or high initiative on many of the above). But, when I look at virtually all the armies here, most SGKs are very basic in terms of combat gear (usually just Ogre Blade, DBG, RF, and maybe OTS).

So, I'm just curious for those who use such 'light' builds - do you take out powerful enemy SCs with other means (or tarpit them), or does your SGK do fine against them?

I know this is a bit of a weird question; but it's something that often bugs me (especially when I'm building a list), so I thought I may as well ask.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

This is because a SGK is a good stand alone Lord with minimal items so works well in low points.
If you want a geared lord and have the points to spend you go for a Vampire Lord, not a SGK.

One has a little extra something in combat.
The other has nearly everything he has, better magic, can be mounted and has MUCH better saves.
Its essentially comparing Medieval Europe to Cave Mean.

If you need to take down something big and nasty like a Chaos lord and stand alone things like Daemon single character units you need to hit them with things that will tar pit or will chew through it with time, Ghouls work well for this if they have poor armour for instance.
Personally though I prefer skeletons or zombies.
200 points worth of models in 5 wide and a rez now and then will ruin their day and odds are if left alone will keep him there all game with rank bonus, banner and the odd wound here and there. erv:

 

[Swaiper]

I usually take as much as possible as my main enemy is WoC aswell. Im so hating the damn -1 to hit they run nowadays >_> or the ward save that can only be failed on 2s.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

The issue lies in His Royal Highness' troop type. A Ghoul King can shred damned near any infantry all day, but soloing a monster is tricky because, well, Thunderstomp. And shy of him surfing on a Tbat, which it's safe to say pretty much only happens in fun/themed lists, his tendency to get tap danced all over by a high-stepping gribbly won't change.

Assuming the monster lasts to the TStomp Initiative step, and since most TStomping guys also have high Toughness, the Ogre Blade is kinda your best bet. What other kit(s) do you have in mind besides the standard Blender minus QB set up?

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Build to take a character like that I myself would favour the following if taking a SGK:

SGK
Red Fury
Quick Blood
Beguile
Sword of Bloodshed (+3 Attacks)
Dragonbane Gem
Potion of Strength

So that will be 8 attacks with another possible 8, rerolls to hit and the turn you enter combat pop the potion for strength 8.
Being ASF should get you through before he hits you and a little defense against flaming and a possible beguile in there which can work a treat.

Downside it costs 440 but it will eat any unit you put in front of him was well as dealing with Daemon Princes.


I must admit I hate the unbreakeable DP and near impossible to fail ward as well.

 

[badfox7]

With that ward save you should take the other tricksterd shard. I fought a daemon prince with my vampire lord and the only way I wounded him was on the rerollable succesful save.

 

[bigbadbat]

You could easily juice a SGK for combat nastiness. Mostly his allowance is held in check by the fact that you want to leave points for a Lvl 4. Also he is unable to take magic armor, or any for that matter, and many bypass the ward save as he has built in Regen.
I have never used a SGK. VL or MN for me.
Regarding the DP, if he isn't flying, it's easy to keep him off big points with chaff. If he is flying, chaff the crap out of the battlefield and give him no strategic place to land.
Your SGK or VL should be picking up points elsewhere.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

With that ward save you should take the other tricksterd shard. I fought a daemon prince with my vampire lord and the only way I wounded him was on the rerollable succesful save.

Normally I would advise as a no brainer against something like that but Sacrificed it for extra attacks myself, sadly can't have everything.

 

[rothgar13]

If you want a "one man army" character, the SGK is just not equipped to deliver - his mount options are not good enough, his lack of armor access is a liability, the Regen won't protect you from KBs. That role is the province of the Vampire Lord, who will give you everything you want... for a price.

What the SGK gives you is great offense on a budget. Great for Scream lists (which deal with DPs by way of Terrorgheists), but not so much if you're looking to ram everything into combat and slice through people irrespective of their identity.

 

[Aedin]

This is because a SGK is a good stand alone Lord with minimal items so works well in low points.
If you want a geared lord and have the points to spend you go for a Vampire Lord, not a SGK.

One has a little extra something in combat.
The other has nearly everything he has, better magic, can be mounted and has MUCH better saves.
Its essentially comparing Medieval Europe to Cave Mean.

If you need to take down something big and nasty like a Chaos lord and stand alone things like Daemon single character units you need to hit them with things that will tar pit or will chew through it with time, Ghouls work well for this if they have poor armour for instance.
Personally though I prefer skeletons or zombies.
200 points worth of models in 5 wide and a rez now and then will ruin their day and odds are if left alone will keep him there all game with rank bonus, banner and the odd wound here and there. erv:

Yup this....

 

[Vipoid]

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

This is because a SGK is a good stand alone Lord with minimal items so works well in low points.
If you want a geared lord and have the points to spend you go for a Vampire Lord, not a SGK.

One has a little extra something in combat.
The other has nearly everything he has, better magic, can be mounted and has MUCH better saves.
Its essentially comparing Medieval Europe to Cave Mean.

Interesting.

Well, one consideration for me is that I don't like using cavalry so, if I use a Vampire Lord, he'll be on foot just like a SGK.

Also, in case it matters, I started using a Ghoul King because a Vampire Lord just can't touch a nurgle daemon prince. He hits it on 5s, and can't even get rerolls from quickblood.

If you need to take down something big and nasty like a Chaos lord and stand alone things like Daemon single character units you need to hit them with things that will tar pit or will chew through it with time, Ghouls work well for this if they have poor armour for instance.
Personally though I prefer skeletons or zombies.
200 points worth of models in 5 wide and a rez now and then will ruin their day and odds are if left alone will keep him there all game with rank bonus, banner and the odd wound here and there. erv:

But how do you get those things in combat with them?

Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes have wings, so it's easy for them to pick and choose their battles.

With that ward save you should take the other tricksterd shard. I fought a daemon prince with my vampire lord and the only way I wounded him was on the rerollable succesful save.

Yeah, I always use the OTS on my Ghoul King. It's often worthwhile just denying those irritating parry saves on infantry, and really shines against things with good ward saves. It's one of the reasons I tend to use ogre blade, rather than Sword of Strife & Potion of Strength.

You could easily juice a SGK for combat nastiness. Mostly his allowance is held in check by the fact that you want to leave points for a Lvl 4. Also he is unable to take magic armor, or any for that matter, and many bypass the ward save as he has built in Regen.
I have never used a SGK. VL or MN for me.

Well, at 2000pts, I can't afford a SGK and a Lv4 MN*, so there's no real constraint on that front.

I'm more concerned that I should be keeping my SGK cheap and spending those points elsewhere. If you think that's less of an issue, I'm quite happy to splash out for Quickblood or the like.

*I'm fully aware that a Lv4 is better. But, I want to use a SGK, and so am trying to make my army work with just Lv2s.

If you want a "one man army" character, the SGK is just not equipped to deliver - his mount options are not good enough, his lack of armor access is a liability, the Regen won't protect you from KBs. That role is the province of the Vampire Lord, who will give you everything you want... for a price.

Interesting. Am I misunderstanding you, or are you saying that a Vampire Lord would be better against a Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster? (if he isn't, then it doesn't really matter which I use on that front ). Anyway, if this is what you're saying, could you perhaps explain why? I ask because it seems like he will really struggle to injure either of them. o.o

Assuming the monster lasts to the TStomp Initiative step, and since most TStomping guys also have high Toughness, the Ogre Blade is kinda your best bet. What other kit(s) do you have in mind besides the standard Blender minus QB set up?

Well, most of my setups involve RF, OTS, DBG, Ogre Blade and often Beguile too (to compensate a little for his lack of armour). I generally have him carry either Cursed Book or Dispel Scroll. Sometimes I've tried giving him wings, although I don't think I've ever been in a situation where jumping out his unit was a good idea).

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Times like this I really miss the auto hitting dread lance.... :'(

Anyway one way to look at taking down a DP is Heavy Light Magic if you have the points, their points and buffs will help you smash the DP something nasty.
This is also Why the Lord works better over the SGK, why pay for a flying lord if you can put the points into a flying mount for him?




Now getting Chaff into combat does depend on if he can fly.
Best option is to bog down deployment and leave a gap in your army with units behind you front a goof few inches behind but this all depends ont he terain, the foe, army choices and so forth, very situational.




Now if you were to make a model that can do what a DP can and be able to take him on head to head:

Vampire Lord: 448
Quick Blood
Beguile
Red Fury
Hellsteed
Armour Of Destiny
Dawnstone
Tricksters other Shard
Shield
Lance

Of course keep him with lore of vamps at a Level 1 and use heros for raising if required depending on your list.

This character though can catch him just as easily, act as a deterrent to stop him from getting behind your ranks whilst making him worry about his own and no doubt a TG will be floating about somewhere as well.

So he has flying, a rerollable 3+ armoursave followed by a 4+ on a toughness 5 characters that can regain woulds so thats: 3+/3+/4+ save.
ASF in combat and hits strength 7 on the charge, extra possible attacks from RF and Tricksters other shard to ruin their own saves as they won't be getting armour.

Give it a crack, he is a doosy.

 

[bigbadbat]

Duke! You must be a mind reader or something. That is the exact VL Im plugging into my chaff attack list.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Duke! You must be a mind reader or something. That is the exact VL Im plugging into my chaff attack list.

Great Minds think alike.

 

[rothgar13]

The mount is the critical thing in favor of the Lord - hitting the guy is rough, but that's frankly of lesser priority than stopping him from demolishing you (remember - if your Lord goes down chances are you've lost the game). Thunderstomps are huge in this matchup, so negating them is of utmost concern. Killing the DP isn't as important as surviving the fight and keeping yourself in the game.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

The mount is the critical thing in favor of the Lord - hitting the guy is rough, but that's frankly of lesser priority than stopping him from demolishing you (remember - if your Lord goes down chances are you've lost the game). Thunderstomps are huge in this matchup, so negating them is of utmost concern. Killing the DP isn't as important as surviving the fight and keeping yourself in the game.

Well mounts and armour, magical armour can do allot for you.
We will discount magic as if its a 2k game and you want a blender lord he probs won't also be your caster unless you want to have all your eggs in one basket.
Mounts do so much to help you, so many people seem to forget at times.

 

[rothgar13]

That's exactly what I mean. The Lord has access to mounts and armor, the Ghoul King does not. Ergo, the Lord matches up a lot better against something like a Daemon Prince.

 

[aussie]

Ghoul king with fencer blades and yeah I know str potion, works well on k-destoryiers, but I think 100 zombies could do a better job

 

[rothgar13]

I don't see how 100 Zeds will ever catch a Destroyer - at least an SGK can be upgraded to fly...

 

[eggsPR]

I don't see how 100 Zeds will ever catch a Destroyer - at least an SGK can be upgraded to fly...

Simple
His turn:
Sets up DP away from zombies.

Your turn:
5 dogs with champ charge, DP must hold.

Remaining moves phase march zombies 8" towards DP. Van Hels them closer, if needed.

Champ challenges, DP must accept.

DP kills dog, gets overkill no thunderstomp bc champ is dead, unit crumbles to 1 or 2 remaining.

His turn:
DP can't move stuck in CC.

DP kills the remaining 1-2 dogs, reforms.

Your turn:
Zombies charge DP.

Rinse and repeat.

I've done this for every DP I faced, and it gets them everytime

 

[rothgar13]

I said Destroyer, not Daemon Prince. It's also worth noting that a Daemon Prince can easily dodge your Wolf baiting trick by deploying behind one of his units on T1 (it won't affect his movement much thanks to flight), though I will admit that it's a clever trick against the poorly prepared, though in that case the DP always has the option of P-Sunning the Zeds off the table.

 

[najo]

Lol, that's awesome. Going to try that next time.

 

[eggsPR]

A kadaii??? Charge a wraith or spirit host into it, or CHs pwn it as well

 

[rothgar13]

Aren't the Destroyer's attacks magical? Pretty sure they are, him being a Daemon and all. I also fail to see how Crypt Horrors do anything but get throat-stomped by a S7 Flaming monstrosity - they don't hold up any better than anything else in the army in that matchup.

 

[eggsPR]

Aren't the Destroyer's attacks magical? Pretty sure they are, him being a Daemon and all.

Noooooo the attacks are certainly NOT magical! It's even been FAQ'ed

You are welcome

8 CHs beat a Kadaii every, single time. Granted, there may not be many left afterwards, but 300 points canceling out 300 points is fair. What are CHs gonna be doing anyway, getting shot at by Warmachines? Ill take my chances against the Kadaii and run my blendy vamp into the infernal guard while 300 point vs 300 point grind each other out