Ghoul Kings - I just don't get it.

[RobTheWise]

As a disclaimer, I have never used a Vampire Lord nor a Ghoul King, only played upto 1700pnts (slowly growing my army ).

But I look at Ghoul Kings and I just don't see why you would ever take one over a traditional Vampire Lord.

They area whopping 40 points more expensive, have lower WS and LD (higher I to be fair), can't take more wizard levels, only has one mount to choose from and worst of all can not wear armour.

For all that, you get the option to ride a Terrorghiest, Infinite Hatred, Regen(5) and poison attacks. I just don't see the logic.

You can get your re-roles to hit via quick blood, and not have to worry about being forced to pursue your targets, you are basic S5, so how useful is poison, really? Regen is cool, but are you really not going to give a 4+ ward save to the guy who can't where armour and when he dies your army
starts to crumble?

What am I missing here? am I just thinking to much inside the box? because besides flying him around with the Scream sword on a TG (making him easier to see and shoot at mind you), I don't see much of a valid use for this guy.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

He is cheaper than a Vampire Lord when they are kitted out leaving more room to take a Lvl4 Master necro. He comes with a good save and hatred so you dont have to buy him those things like you do for a Vampire lord. He is one of the faster characters in the game and due to his save being included in his profile that is more points you can spend on a magic weapon.

He is pure cheap offense where a Vampire Lord is very jack of all trades. Honestly I would take a GK over a Vampire lord every day of the week.

 

[Demian]

Well, the Ghoul King, in average is cheaper, because:

- Yeah, he cannot fulfill the role of caster, so we will discard that option here
- For a killy lord you will give him: Ogre Blade, Red Fury and Dragonbane Gem. He really needs nothing more. He has re-rolls to hit via Infinite Hatred. His Regeneration is average, but it's not penalized by Strength. Dragonbane Gem covers the Flaming Attacks deficiency. he can take on another lord with ease.

- For a Butcher lord, he gets: Sword of Strife / Scabscrath, Potion of Strength, Red Fury and Dragonbane Gem. He can almost kill 2 ranks of anything by himself. He could also Scream.

Points total are more efficient for his role than a normal Vampire Lord. The main con here is that a Vampire Lord has Armour Save, can also be a high level Wizard (3-4) and get the fabulous Nightshroud and probably needs Quickblood to work, so he gets ASF.

Mathematical reasons why a Ghoul King is better at his job =)

 

[RobTheWise]

Yeh, I get the pure offence thing, but don't you find T5 and regen(5) a bit . . . well . . . squishy?

Any unit with a great weapon or halberd, or that is an ogre could quite easily kill him in a couple of rounds.

And if the flame banner is involved then he really is toast! (pun intended).
Edit: Ahh the dragon bane gem, of course!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Also you get him beguile and on his 20mm in the corner he survives fairly well.

My personal favorite build on him is
Ogre Blade
Dragon Bane Gem
OTS
Red Fury
Beguile

 

[Yorga]

Johnny loves level 4 Master Necros with Death Magic for that chance of the Purple Sun instant win. You are hard pressed to buy a Master Necro in a 2500 point game if you kit out a regular Vampire properly.

Since you are only up to 1700 this has not been a issue for you.

SGK are great for infantry based armies. My preference (just because I like it) is for a mobile Vampire on a steed or helsteed.

SGK are also great in 2 terrorgheist armies if you arm him with Skabscarth. Three screams can wipe out entire units.

 

[Yanda]

I find you can get great value with a Ghoul King w/o Terrorgeist.

My Latest Setup sends him with Staff of Damnation in a group of GW Grave Guard and a Lodestone Corpse Cart on the flank potentially giving ASF and re-rolls on my heals. The Corpse Cart nicely supports it in combat too as the 2d6+1 STR 3 Hits and d6 Impact hits and +1 Charging CR on the 2nd turn of Combat is a nice bonus.

 

[sonova]

As a disclaimer, I have never used a Vampire Lord nor a Ghoul King, only played upto 1700pnts (slowly growing my army ).

But I look at Ghoul Kings and I just don't see why you would ever take one over a traditional Vampire Lord.

They area whopping 40 points more expensive, have lower WS and LD (higher I to be fair), can't take more wizard levels, only has one mount to choose from and worst of all can not wear armour.

For all that, you get the option to ride a Terrorghiest, Infinite Hatred, Regen(5) and poison attacks. I just don't see the logic.

You can get your re-roles to hit via quick blood, and not have to worry about being forced to pursue your targets, you are basic S5, so how useful is poison, really? Regen is cool, but are you really not going to give a 4+ ward save to the guy who can't where armour and when he dies your army
starts to crumble?

What am I missing here? am I just thinking to much inside the box? because besides flying him around with the Scream sword on a TG (making him easier to see and shoot at mind you), I don't see much of a valid use for this guy.

Infinite hatred + poisoned attacks is a pretty big chunk of win. The only thing he really needs is Red fury and you've got yourself a pretty good infantry mulcher; and as other people have pointed out, clocks in cheaper than a regular vamp with the same capabilities. Give him + attack weapons and it gets really excessive.

He does not need armor. Regen 5 is squishy yes, but if you've been paying attention the name of the game is to never be in combat with something that can kill your vampires. Abuse your recurring champions if theres an opposing character in the mix.

Rank and file (and even elite knights) with the flaming banner can NOT reliably kill him because he is regaining wounds with every kill he inflicts. And GKs inflict lots of kills. This is basically the only vampire that would see any real benefit from the +Wound vamp power simply because he doesnt have all that much better to take. Load him up with skabscrath for the lulz and make entire RANKS disappear in a single charge.

 

[Narenzade]

I think the biggest draw is Infinate Hatred / Poison Attacks. Its an awesome combination. The bonus advantage is you really no longer have to take Quickblood. It's still decent, but much less of a requirement.

I've generally ran mine as-
Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Other Trickers Shard
Red Fury, Beguile, Aura of Dark Majesty or Quickblood or none.

They're just plain ole meat grinders.
I find between Beguile, Regen and Ward he's fairly safe. Generally, he eats whatever he's in CC with alive.

 

[Questioner]

Unfortunately, only being able to take a ward save or regen against a wound means that is not quite as good...

 

[Infernal Skull]

I used a SGK for the first time a couple weeks ago, and that thing dominated the battle. He was in a unit of skeletons and did about 10-12 wounds in combat. He broke a unit of Free Company and, after pursuing, my skeletons were charged in the back. The SGK made way to the back rank and killed about 12 models, winning the combat.

Here's my build for him (390 points):
Sword of Strife (+2 A for a total of 7)
Red Fury (unsaved wounds generate one additional attack)
Innate Ability: Infinate Hatred (reroll missed attacks in every round)

That's 14 potential attacks, rerolling to hit on 3's every time! Because he's using a magic weapon, he doesn't benefit from his Poison special rule, but that's a fair trade.

Talisman of Preservation (4+ Ward, replaces his 5+ Regen)
Aura of Dark Majesty (Enemy are -1 Ld within 6")
Fear Incarnate (Enemy rerolls successful Fear tests caused by him or his unit)

Combine his Aura and Fear Incarnate with the Screaming Banner, and the enemy will often be reduced to WS 1, meaning your troops can even hit on 3's and the enemy needs 5's to strike back at the GK.

I'm sold.

 

[Krysdagger]

Keep in mind you can get that regen up to 4+ if you are near the (forget name of model/vehicle... you know the one).

Now, that might be hard to arrange, but 4+ is much better than 5+ and probably worth doing the manouvering.

Krys

 

[woodster17]

To some extent, in larger games it doesn't really matter that the GK is more squishy than standard VL's. Since you can pass generalship on if your general dies with the new book it's not so crucial to keep your general alive any more. As some have alluded to, this means you can go combat heavy, stick him on a terrogheist and have some fun without worrying that if the GK dies the entire army will follow. You can send your GK rampaging and worry about crumbling if a Master Necromancer or more conventional Vamp is required to take over generalship.

The only downside to sticking a GK general on a terrorgheist and flinging him around to cause havoc is the 12' leadership march bubble.

Edit: Mortis Engine Krysdagger, but good point.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Having a nearby Mortis Engine and having the talisman of 2+ ward vs flaming means that if somebody is silly enough to try and negate your 4+ regen with flaming they only make you harder to hurt... and if your army is well-built around a Mortis Engine it can be very powerful indeed.

 

[N1AK]

As a disclaimer, I have never used a Vampire Lord nor a Ghoul King, only played upto 1700pnts (slowly growing my army ).

But I look at Ghoul Kings and I just don't see why you would ever take one over a traditional Vampire Lord.

They area whopping 40 points more expensive, have lower WS and LD (higher I to be fair), can't take more wizard levels, only has one mount to choose from and worst of all can not wear armour.

For all that, you get the option to ride a Terrorghiest, Infinite Hatred, Regen(5) and poison attacks. I just don't see the logic.

You can get your re-roles to hit via quick blood, and not have to worry about being forced to pursue your targets, you are basic S5, so how useful is poison, really? Regen is cool, but are you really not going to give a 4+ ward save to the guy who can't where armour and when he dies your army
starts to crumble?

What am I missing here? am I just thinking to much inside the box? because besides flying him around with the Scream sword on a TG (making him easier to see and shoot at mind you), I don't see much of a valid use for this guy.

Firstly you don't have to pursue due to hatred in 8th.

I use a Ghoul King and have for about 20 of the 22 games I've played with the new book.

The 5+ regen combines nicely with the dragonbane gem (5pts) and Mortis Engine to give a 4++ save. Vulnerability to killing blow is the main weakness (but frankly a 4+ ward is only 50% better in that case).

Infinite hatred is about equal to Quickblood. You always re-roll even against High Elves, Slaanesh Daemons etc but may not be going first as often.

So for 260pts I've got an effective alternative to a Vampire Lord + quickblood + talisman of protection = 295pts. I personally prefer to take a Lvl 4 Necromancer for my main caster than stick all my points into a Vampire I intend to throw into combat.

My current Ghoul King build is: Ogre Blade, Dragonbane Gem, The other tricksters shard and Red Fury: 370pts. I can't think of a Vampire Lord who can do that much damage while maintaining as good or better protection for less than 400pts.

 

[Fluffytemplar]

Some people have brought it up, but not stressed it high enough. First, our army needs magic! (not always but more so than most) So we usually want to bring a level 4, you can bring him naked, but why not give him periapt and maybe some other fun things to help.

Second, we have some of the strongest combat characters in the game! so everyone wants to bring that super killy lord.

Now the problem is they're both quite expensive. In 2400pt games I've managed to squeeze in a naked lvl 4 and a Vamp lord for 396. I'm starting to think a strigoi would be the better investment.

Using your combat general as a meat grinder you aren't afraid to lose is perfect. People seem to still be putting a ton of points into their strigoi with their examples. You could conceivably just give him red fury and dragonbane gem and throw him into infantry (with or without a unit!) which gives you points left over to give your level 4 either a ward save or black periapt. If it wasn't for the Ld restriction on the general how many of us would make our level 4 necro the general and the combat vamp just support anyway? Since losing the general isn't game losing anymore you can still throw him in harms way.

Plus in a competitive environment you can usually tell which unit has the flaming banner in an army so they become his obvious target. And being a wizard just helps his cause because if you really need to he can heal himself!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Our army does not need magic. Well not Lore of Vampires anyway

 

[Chivalry]

Our army does not need magic. Well not Lore of Vampires anyway

Sorry, First post, I would argue that whilst we dont Need Lore of Vamps, the combination of VHDM and VH can turn any unit (bar perhaps zombies) in our roster into a fairly menacing unit, something which I find is often underestimated.

I also think that a large part of the value for a Vampire lord is his huge points denial, a very well kitted vamp lord will set you back 500pts generally, which is 500pts(+100 General vp's) that the opponent will find incredibly difficult to obtain.

 

[Velmates]

Sorry when I missed something but I am fairly new to the whole game and have never used the SGK for now. But what is it about the Other Trickster's Shard? Is it really worth taking?

 

[Chivalry]

Sorry when I missed something but I am fairly new to the whole game and have never used the SGK for now. But what is it about the Other Trickster's Shard? Is it really worth taking?

Most Characters, and a fair portion of units, have some form of ward save in 8th, its almost unthinkable to take a combat character without a talisman of protection (4+ ward) or similar. The OTS is a 15pt item that forces them to reroll any saves they make on that roll, which drastically increases your chances of squishing them

 

[Dreadgrass]

Incidentally, OTS doesn't affect regen, so another little plus in the GK's favour.

 

[Vampire Count]

Rank and file (and even elite knights) with the flaming banner can NOT reliably kill him because he is regaining wounds with every kill he inflicts.

Not sure what you mean here. Are yiu referring to 'The Hunger' special rule? That means if you cause 1 or more wounds, you roll ONE D6 and you get ONE wound back on the roll of a 6. Hardly a realiable or swift method of healing!

 

[Velmates]

Sure and agreed. Maybe I should have told that I am not that new, so I know about the enemy characters having some kind of ward save. But still: most of you use the SGK to slaughter RnF. And most units dont get a ward so easily... So you just take OTS for the possibility of getting in a fight with some combat lord, I see.

 

[sonova]

Rank and file (and even elite knights) with the flaming banner can NOT reliably kill him because he is regaining wounds with every kill he inflicts.

Not sure what you mean here. Are yiu referring to 'The Hunger' special rule? That means if you cause 1 or more wounds, you roll ONE D6 and you get ONE wound back on the roll of a 6. Hardly a realiable or swift method of healing!

Hi. From personal experience, The Hunger does not seem like much but it does make a very big difference BECAUSE unless you've been silly and sent your vampire up against something totally absurd, it + the vamp lore effect will pretty much ensure that your vamp lord will never ever die to anything short of an insanely geared character or killing blow.

You DONT need to regain 30 wounds with The Hunger. At most in the entire game you'd only need to regain 1 or 2 which is easy because you will be rolling that ONE dice, EVERY round of combat. BECAUSE the odds of a COMBAT LORD not killing rank and file is just well ... (-_-).

Admittedly I did word it poorly but its still fairly reliable. This is the nature of the d6 system. Even 6's to X are reliable assuming that:-

a) you can roll enough dice
b) there is no downside for 'failure'

Its why poison and KB are considered to be powerful abilities even though they need 6s to go off.

EDIT: For the record. The closest my lord has ever come to dying against rank and file was when I felt saucy and decided to charge some Chaos Knights head on just because I could. Lost 2 wounds, vamp lore + the hunger on the final round of combat meant I still exited that fight at full health. I will never do that again .

 

[N1AK]

Sorry when I missed something but I am fairly new to the whole game and have never used the SGK for now. But what is it about the Other Trickster's Shard? Is it really worth taking?

It's the most optional part of my SGK and in the two games I've run it so far it has made no difference but I think it'll pay off. With 5 attacks and S7 he can deal with armour easily enough but most characters will be fielding a 4++ ward, Daemons have a 5++ on everyone etc and that can really limit the damage he can do.

If I'm playing 2400pts and I want to take a Master Necro Lvl 4 with the Periapt (255 pts) then I'd drop the tricksters shard to fit within 600pts.