Ghoul Kings - I just don't get it.

[bobajelly]

Honestly, the lore (and consequent lack of armour) is what seems to seal people's opinions of the SGK. If they had called him the 'Doomseeking Naked Fanatic Vampire of Flaming Death' people might use him and be all 'awesome lore bro'

But really, SGK have formed a mainstay part of my battleline. Ive tried using Vampire Lords and find them waaay vulnerable to miscasts if you make them casters, and too expensive for the combat role (compared to the SGK). In fact my Lord was overly durable....I'd spent so much on his protection he was never wounded, but his combat ability was shit compared to the SGK who would reliably tip whole combats in my favour. SGK can be wounded, but can recover fairly quickly (I run tome-enhanced IoN spam, so there are plenty of wounds being recovered).

Anecdote: Vanilla SGK in a new unit of raised zombies (parent unit had hex and was about to be hydra bait, so I ran him out). The SGK made the zombies so good at winning combat the unit continued to grow until the end of the game at which point it numbered over 60 models.

Moral of the story: Never leaving home without a SGK in future.

 

[Yorga]

And I wouldnt brag about how many wounds your almost naked characters have. My lord in swanky 3+/4++ is pretty tough to kill. Plus my combo that I mentioned is really tough to counter and something that I don't, or have not seen, run anywhere else.

You don't get out much. My last tournament I ran a Lord with 1+/4+ and a Wight King in my Black Knight bus. You certainly did not invent the wheel Vortaine.

 

[lost_shadow]

How can you say the vampire lords combat ability was ****

He can take the same items as a ghoul king


Ok then
Ghoul king
red fury
quickblood
ogre blade
dragonbane gem
the other trickstar's shard



Oh wait look:
Vampire lord
Red fury
quickblood

talisman of preservation
ogre blade
the other tricstar's shard

Wait.....the vampire lord has armour and can take a barded nightmare, thats right hes EXACTLY the same, but more expensive and with armour

How can he be worse? when he can have the exact same things, plus an armour save, he will perform just as well as ghoul king if hes setup like that


Lets see:
Ghoul king always strikes first

Vampire lord always strikes first

Ghoul king 5 x strength 7 attacks

Vampire lord 5 x strength 7 attacks

Ghoul king re rolls to hit

Vampire lord re rolls to hit

Ghoul king 5+ save

Vampire lord basic 4+ armour save, mounted gives a 2+

Which part that makes the vampire lord worst in combat than the ghoul king am i missing?


I dont take invocation spam, I got combat heavy with little magic, so theres you answer why a combat vampire lord is better for my army, as its unlikely my opponent would allow me to cast any invocation spells to heal characters.

 

[Vortaine]

And I wouldnt brag about how many wounds your almost naked characters have. My lord in swanky 3+/4++ is pretty tough to kill. Plus my combo that I mentioned is really tough to counter and something that I don't, or have not seen, run anywhere else.

You don't get out much. My last tournament I ran a Lord with 1+/4+ and a Wight King in my Black Knight bus. You certainly did not invent the wheel Vortaine.

I did not say I did. I said I ran a combination, implying a set of items and special rules, that work together and make my vampire quite nasty and very survivable. I regularly view these forums and semi-regularly post, so cut the snide. I've see virtually every build proposed, so take it on faith that I might have something different going. Besides, my point was that with an armor save and a ward save, my lord has more survivability than your sgk's 5+ regeneration.

Like i've said, the sgk is a cool. If you use him and have found he is awesome, cool. I am not discussing his viability, as your anecdotal evidence is proof enough that he has some decent chops on him. Im saying its a great thing that we have such options to suit our preferences.

 

[lost_shadow]

I second that, ghoul kings are cool and its all about personal preference. I like to make my lords tough and hard to kill, I realise a vamp lord cant 'deal' like a ghoul king can, but hes not that far behind.
He still does damage, maybe 1 or 2 wounds less than a ghoul king overall. I build my whole army as a tough elite army thats difficult to kill.
I can see how ghoul kings can be great, I just prefer 'sure things' like heavy hitting tough grave guard heavy hitters like terrorghiests and powerful lords, ive said my piece here.
I dont disagree, but I like having a tough character, it makes challenges last a number of turns and keeps players on the edge of their seat wondering who will fluff up first.

 

[aussie]

Ok then
Ghoul king
red fury
quickblood
ogre blade
dragonbane gem
the other trickstar's shard



Oh wait look:
Vampire lord
Red fury
quickblood

talisman of preservation
ogre blade
the other tricstar's shard






Lets see:
Ghoul king always strikes first

Vampire lord always strikes first

Ghoul king 5 x strength 7 attacks

Vampire lord 5 x strength 7 attacks

Ghoul king re rolls to hit

Vampire lord re rolls to hit

Ghoul king 5+ save

Vampire lord basic 4+ armour save, mounted gives a 2+

Which part that makes the vampire lord worst in combat than the ghoul king am i missing?


I dont take invocation spam, I got combat heavy with little magic, so theres you answer why a combat vampire lord is better for my army, as its unlikely my opponent would allow me to cast any invocation spells to heal characters.

vampire would not get a reroll to hit against a sgk, and if you are like every other player that takes a lord then you will have him level 4, for about the same price that will be a master necro. ots makes you reroll your 4+ ward, ots wont make the sgk reroll his 5+ regen, some people run mortis engines that make the 5+ to a 4+. what else is there to see. every lord out there is there to kill each other. The sgk allows one to bring a level 4 none vampire lore. model aka master necro

 

[lost_shadow]

Yes I know the vampire wont get re rolls, I took that into account. Point is ive tried over and over and its the same story, eiether the ghoul king wins first round of combat or hes dead, T5 and a 5+ save is nothing to brag about

I know the ghoul king strikes first and has re rolls, as stated on average they cause two wounds to each other per combat, they are evenly matched just different setups, theres no real need for any more debate on my part

 

[Xelgno]

hey lost_shadow, I'm been following your logic in regards to the sgk vs the vampire lord and I'm in the same position as you are. it seems ppl play the sgk only because they like it and not to much else as it was pointed out you can make them both awesome. anyway I've read your play tests and the one thing i feel your missing is pitting them both up vs your VL. so what i mean is you put the VL vs the sgk and in reverse the SGK vs the VL but i was wondering how the VL vs VL would go compared to the SGK vs VL. which one would have a better chance at killing your lord.

Just a thought

-Xel

 

[lost_shadow]

Heres what I did
(both have quickblood and red fury)
VL vs VL
me: trickstar's helm
great weapon
talisman of preservation 45

ENEMY: Vampire lord
ogre blade
Talisman of preservation
the other trickstar's shard

Fight 1
round 1 I take 4 wounds.....

Fight 2
Round 1, I take 1 wound, other takes 1 wound

Round 2, I take 4 wounds again

Fight 3
Round 1 I take 1 wound, I deal 2 back
Round 2, I take 2 wounds

Fight 4,
Round 1, I take 6 wounds again

Fight 5,
Round 1, No wounds on each other
Round 2, 2 wounds to me, 1 to enemy
Round 3, I take 4 wounds

Fight 6,
Round 1, I do 2 wounds, he does 2 wounds.
Round 2, I take 2 wounds

The fact that im now hitting on a 4+ and he has a 4+ ward save makes a lot of difference, but the helm just prolonged my death

Against infantry of S5 or more, the VL with just tali pres fair little better than the ghoul king where as mine survives 2-4 rounds of combat against them.

I have not taken into account healing spells or the hunger though, Is that what you were getting at?

 

[Demian]

The Strigoi Ghoul King is the only reliable vampire I would give both the Skabscrath and Flying Horror.

With great success I've won 4 games now (at 2000pts) and with the right army set it's gold.

Doing the same with a regular Vampire Lord would be, of course, suicide for a bunch of reasons: no Ward save, little combat potential, and even if he was mounted on a hellsteed to avoid being leeched points from Flying Horror, he still can't fit in most Units to hide before flight-scream.

That being said, combat-wise they sit very tight.

So, first of all, one does not build a Vampire to kill another Vampire (laws of the dead... it's forbidden!! !)

We make builds to topple other characters, such as Bloodthirster, or surviving assassination attempts, or go toe to toe with a unit of Minotaurs and don't get squashed.

We must all think the best setup for our entire army when using either a Vampire Lord or a Ghoul King. They both change the army to their needs, making the Vampire Lord best for Cavalry armies or to make Wight armies better, and Ghoul Kings to either have 2-4 Screams per shooting phase or have an army of Skeletons + Monsters eat other heavy hitting infantry blocks.

I don't see the point of doing any 1 on 1 encounters against one another; specially if we do not consider the points cost and the Vampire Lord takes on a Ghoul king mounted on a Coven Throne, or if the Ghoul King is on a Terrorgheist and with some luck, the screams blast the VL even before the CC phase begins.

 

[N1AK]

He can take the same items as a ghoul king

You shouldn't be giving a Ghoul King and Vampire lord the same stuff. A mounted Vampire Lord has some definite advantages (ability to get great re-rollable armour save) but defines the list your going to take (big cav bus) and costs the points.

The primary reason for taking a Ghoul King is to allow you to field a separate master necromancer. Keeping a Vampire Lord below 400pts and making him hard to kill (and still hitty enough to bother taking) is tough, if you even accept the premise that you can (which I don't).

The Ghoul King combos nicely with a Mortis Engine & dragonbane gem for a great ward against anything but killing blow. That's still a big weakness but it's not like a 4+ ward makes you immune (you'll still try and avoid KB as much as possible).

I lost my Ghoul king once in 6 games at a tournament this weekend in a round of combat where he got KBed 5 times. A 4++ ward, although nice, probably wasn't going to change that and at least I still had my level 4 so could hold out for a minor loss.

I still rate Vampire Lords. I think the cavalry lists are very effective amongst other benefits. I just find it odd that others can't see the obvious benefits of a Ghoul King in some other builds.

 

[N1AK]

hey lost_shadow, I'm been following your logic in regards to the sgk vs the vampire lord and I'm in the same position as you are. it seems ppl play the sgk only because they like it and not to much else as it was pointed out you can make them both awesome.

You can make more powerful Vampire Lord characters (ignoring monster mounts) but they cost more. The SGK lets you maximise damage potential for considerably less points than an equally (or more protected Vampire lord). If you're only taking one character and are willing to spend 500+ points on them then the Vampire will provide the better builds.

 

[Demian]

Also, the Ghoul King can effectively equip any magical weapon in the BRB, at least the costly ones, specially Sword of Bloodshed to get +3 attacks, and still use Dragonbane Gem and Potion of Strength / Other Trickster's Shard. He could also make use of the pricey Arcane Items in our book, such as the Staff of Damnation or the Cursed Book, since none of them use his low wizard level.

Cost and versatility is what makes the difference between a Ghoul King and a Vampire Lord. Tune your army to fulfill a specific role, and you can know who to pick & equip.

 

[meowser]

- he is cool
- i run DBG, RF, sword of might, beguile and m necro l4 power stone ironcurse at 2500.
- ive thought about some cool house rules to make him more competitive:
- may take lore of beasts (only matters in big games where hes not the general)
- may raise ghouls above start (not OP considering he cant get more magic levels)
- poison always works with magic weaps