Good Vampires in Warhammer?

[The Dark Sheep]

I think a male vamp won't be capable of it, but a female still has her... well... um... Anyway I don't really think they'd feel any particular pleasure in doing it (that's why Genevieve and the playwright switched between sex and bloodsucking all the time).

 

[Gree]

Lesa and Milosh (my vampires) just want to have copious amounts of sex and fun - that sounds pretty normal in my book

Are vampire even capable of sex? Nothing from the Liber Necris suggest that those parts are even functional. William King also did not mention this in his novel. Please let me know if this is possible or not.

It depends on the vampire, Lahmians certainly would have sex as part of thier mission. Others, like my own vampire Mircea, are utterly asexual, intreste donly in blood.

 

[Belladamma Voltaire]

Genevieve was, of course, a good Vampire.

Some would argue that for his sins, Vlad did a lot of good, freeing the Vampires from Nagashs control and helping Vanhel drive back the Skaven.

I would argue that Mannfred attacking the host of Vardek Crom would be seen as a good deed in many peoples eyes.

Simple problem as always; perspective.

 

[ironlord]

So are you thinking of Good Vamps like the 2 from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Angel and later Spike) or the Sparkling Cullen family (and the Denalli Clan) in Twilight.

Weren't the Vampires in Sylvania trying once to be productive members of the Empire? They might be Good Vampires.

I think in the Warhammer version the humans and others consider the Vampires as evil.

It would be intereresting for someone to do a "Good" vampire army and storyline.

and the darren shan saga, the vampires in that series werent necissarily evil, even if they werent good, they just werent human

i think in order to have good vampires you cant really use warhammer fluff
most of the vampires (and by that i mean 99% of them) are willing to use any means necissary to gain power and that makes them evil since they will stoop to any low to get whatever they need

 

[Arkhan]

Since when were VC ever Chaos?

Also, I'm thinking OotBD was right regarding Nagash; they wanted immortality, I don't think they were created to be "ultimate predators"......

Since Nagash used Magic to create The Undead and magic comes from Chaos, even though The Chaos Gods look at Nagash and his creations like he's their unwanted bastard child. anyhow I got the ultimate Predator thing from the Liber Nectarus

Actually I always figured the Undead are the rivals of Chaos.

Nagash was determined that he would rule the world instead of the Chaos gods. He was actually planning on after wiping out all life in the world to seal of Chaos from the world. Until his crushing defeat he was one of the few that actually had the potential to challenge the gods and win.

Undeads in general are not driven by their feelings either that the Chaos Gods needs. As for Vampires their souls are cut off from the realms of the gods and their souls are bound directly to their body so they never have to worry about demons stealing them.

So if anything the Undead have the potential to be the biggest threat against Chaos because they are not driven by the gods.

 

[Sanai]

That is the second time I have seen sellyanes copy and paste an answer or question someone else wrote today.

 

[Malchus Von Carstein]

I'd urge anyone on these boards who hasn't read the Genevieve novels to give them a go.
I loved Drachenfels when I was younger, and recently got the Genevieve Anthology and was pleased to find I still really enjoyed it.

Out of the other Black Library offerings, I've read some of the Horus Heresy books, but they were very disapointing, especially the dialogue. I seem to remember Bill King's early stuff being quite good - i liked a lot of the fluff from the mid 90's. I have the Vampire Wars book on order although I'm not expecting as much from it. It seems to be the difference between extended armybook background sections, and an actual story, set in the warhammer world - not to put the black library books down though, they are fun.

Jesht - give it a go, the Genevieve anthology is cheap on play.com at the moment, and she's a great character - makes a distinction between the nearly and Truly dead.

There's a reference to how she finds that 'things' always seem to show up when she's around, a nice touch that goes well with the current armybook take on ghouls and undead creatures gravitating towards vampires.

 

[Trevy the Great]

Sellyanes, threadnomancy and the plagiarism of other poster's posts is not allowed on this forum. Stop immediately or action will be taken.

P.S The Genevieve novels suck, I wouldn't recommend them.

 

[von Scheff]

I suppose you could say that vampires as a general rule are selfish creatures, since they tend to lose touch with their humanity as they grow older and so they lose the urge to be good, without expecting it to reciprocrated. The notable exception there would be Jerek von Carstein from Vampire Wars who for some reason doesn't lose this connection to his humanity. He does however still suffer a lot from his vampiric instincts and is driven close to madness from lack of blood on several occasions, since animal blood doesn't offer sufficient sustenance.

Of Vlad, Konrad and Mannfred I'd say that Mannfred is clearly the more wicked one. Possible because he is the most powerful and cunning of the three and is all too well aware of the fact I have to read into the Genevieve story some more.. Was considering buying it last time I was near it, but I settled for Vampire Wars instead Can't say I regret it

As for the whole Undead aligned for Chaos thing, Nagash is probably no different than any other magician in terms of arrogance. He believes that the is able to control the winds without the demons cashing in on his immortal soul afterwards, and so far he has proven that he is in fact a lot better than the average conjurer.. To put it mildly I can imagine that the Chaos Gods aren't too overjoyed by that..

There is a mention in the VC army book of a Chaos Champion army entering Sylvania in the Imperial Year 2523. Supposedly they never made it out again, but were instead raised to form a giant undead host. You could hardly call the two factions allies

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

To say that a vampire is "evil" because it drinks human blood I think is a bit dodgey,we eatthe flesh of other creatures not just for sustenance but for pleasure as well,there isn't much difference,vampires are just a representation of our "darker" side,no one can say they have never once for a split second wished they had the power to have revenge on those who have caused us harm or wanted power,I suppose in the end it is all about perspective

I would say that jerek von carstein is a very good example of a vampire with good intentions,he bricks himself up in some forgotten building to protect the carstein ring,that in itself is a good deed

I don't think you can say there good or evil because they are just fractions of ourselves

 

[Lord Reginer]

Since when were VC ever Chaos?

Also, I'm thinking OotBD was right regarding Nagash; they wanted immortality, I don't think they were created to be "ultimate predators"......

Since Nagash used Magic to create The Undead and magic comes from Chaos, even though The Chaos Gods look at Nagash and his creations like he's their unwanted bastard child. anyhow I got the ultimate Predator thing from the Liber Nectarus

I got to disagree, there has been alot of refrences that The chaos gods, Tzeentch in particular as lord of magic positively HATES the undead. Due to the fact they are Unchanging, static and the total form of ORDER (in a very weird way). Further.. enter the character every undead player dreads to fight. Harry the hammer... nothing like suddenly having to deal with fear in that unit of skels.. owch.

 

[The Flaming Hand]

Like i have said before in another topic, i have never considered the average vampire to be evil. At least not more evil then the average human (or elf or dwarf for that matter). As a philosofer and a follower of the occult i am also reluctant to call something evil just because it is of darkness element. Actually light powers can be very evil to, with the prime example being the inquisition.

It is just, as with humans, the more power a creature have, the more likely are it to be evil. As most known vampires in the warhammer world are very powerfull, they are also mostly evil from human point of view. In the same way, a human that is so much more powerfull then the common man as a vampire lord is will most likely be seen just as evil if it werent for them being the same species. And the way most humans look on vampires is probably the same way most animals view humans.

However, from my own point of view, here is some vampires that despite massive power arent that bad.

Vlad von Carstein
Really, how is he much different from the other contenders of the throne?

Abhorash
Noble warrior to some, crazy butcher to others. However it cannot be denied that Abhorash posses an honour code and a moral standard mostly seen in protagonists.

Ushoran
Arrogant, but probably some of the best rulers a group of humans ever had, if you take his vampiric status into account. Under his rule the kingdom of strigoi flourished, and only criminals were drained of blood. And the strigany remains loyal to him and his kin to this day.

 

[Xacatecas]

When you are immortal you get pretty selfish, all of those meddling concerns of mortals, food, shelter etc become passing niceties. If you look at the warhammer lore, most of the young vampires are just trying to extend the last vestiges of their humanity, holding court, political power and the like while the older vampires just retire to do whatever it is they prefer - ahborash nerfiti etc.

So while vampires aren't in essence evil, being alone with the dead who have no desires beyond what you give them, means you dont have to comprimise. think of most of them as thousand year old spoiled brats, and most of thier motivation makes more sense

 

[Skeletor]

I don't buy that more than a few rare vampires can be good.

Many posters keep saying that we are not considered evil for eating animals or the vampires don't think they are evil. If we take in perspective then yes it is up for debate whether vampires think what they are doing is evil or good. The important thing to remember is that when asking if something is evil, we use our own morals and culture to decide. Honestly, can anyone here really say they wouldn't find a blood drinking murderer who uses evil magic and raises the dead not evil. If you said yes, don't kid yourself. Yes, vampires in our society would be considered evil, and yes if you apply it to Empire society they would also be looked upon as evil, even more so because of suspicion and a truckload of extra ignorance added on.

The Flaming Hand, you would be right if vampirism was a natural disease, but it is not. The creation of vampirism heavily involved dark magic(which IS evil, magic specializing in causing agony/fear and bringing back the dead against their will IS evil) and was made for all the wrong reasons(immortality, lust for power, arrogance).

I know I'll get flak for this but Blood Dragons are not good. Honour does not instantly translate into good and pure. It means you have a set of rules and you will do what you can to follow them. It means the Blood Dragons will give their enemies a fair chance, but only because they're obsessed with bettering themselves and would be unsatisfied with an opponent who wasn't at his best. The desire to free themselves from the blood curse isn't because they feel bad for the humans they have to feed on, but because their thirst is the ultimate challenge and weakness that they have to conquer. Walach corrupted an entire knightly Empire Order, killing most and turning some into vampires. The Red Duke wanted the throne of Brettonia. Yes, Abhorash was at first unwilling to drink the blood of the willing, but in the Liber Necris it also states that after his city had been destroyed he swore to be the enemy of all mankind for eternity and that when he moved North with his disciples he "[slayed] all who crossed their path and [gorged] themselves after years of denial and restraint.". Another source says Abhorash is waiting for his disciples so that they can go to war. War against what? The other vampires? I'd settle my bet for complete domination of the Old World.

That being said why do so many people have to justify that the vampires they are playing are good? No other army except Chaos can come off as evil as us at a first glance. Our army have all the classic fears and monsters people think of as evil and frightful. I love vampires more than anything else in the Warhammer world but I signed up to be an evil, Machiavellian S.O.B. Whatever we say to ourselves, Vampire Counts were designed as an evil army to fight against the forces of good. Why are so many people reluctant to admit they are the bad guy?

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

I don't think its reluctance to be evil, but wanting a more unique fluff for your general, if it wasn't for bloodlines so many vampires I've read about would be virtually the same.
I for one want a good vampire (not crappy Twilight good though), in terms of him being misunderstood and choosing to fight for good causes. Nowhere in the fluff does it simply say 'vampires are evil', its just a combination of the use of an empire perspective and mostly talking about the bad vampires (I mean c'mon, most of the VC army book is about the Von Carsteins wanting to rule to empire, and when anyone attacks GW's little baby you know they'll be tagged as evil forever)
In the case of my vampire, he'll still feed on humans but that's not exactly his choice, he does what's necessary. He raises the dead and has sired a few gets, again this isn't exactly evil, its needed to give his cause an edge over his foes.
Now consider this, Vlad wanted to rule over the Empire, when ruling Sylvania I'm pretty sure he did improve the lives of the Sylvanians, alot of people in the Empire really aren't that well off (typical neglecting emperors and kings). So, would Vlad have made their lives better (which would have been deemed 'good'), yes alot would get killed for vlad and co to sustain themselves, but then so many more would have died for 'the empire's cause'.
Honestly, I think its easier to say that some vampires choose to be evil, others do somewhat evil things to survive. Instead of saying all vampires are evil, I think they are pushed towards 'evil' by being sired, but some choose not to do evil actions. For example, Abhorash tried to control himself and have others do the same, by choice he wants to be good but he understands that he has no choice over some things (needing blood).
The Blood Dragons seeing need of blood as a weakness does prove my point because THEY SEE IT AS A WEAKNESS, blood is like sex for a vampire so to want to 'cure' that need shows that they are not evil as they are willing to remove what other vampires don't see as a weakness but something to enjoy. In this case they aren't 'good', but they aren't 'evil'. They simply choose like non-vampires do, but have the disadvantage of needing human blood and needing to use the unliving to do what they want because most living things assume that vampires are evil.
In a sense, you could say that the assumptions of the 'good-guys' are what's evil, and this rejection of vampires is what drives them to hate humanity, not because the vampires are evil, but because the humans are ignorant.

 

[Harland]

'Zorgon' from Warpstone and Donuts, and also Admos.
If they count.
dunno about Harland. He has his own purposes.

 

[Skeletor]

Order of the Blood Dragon, you pitched your argument well. I'm by no means saying anyone can't have their vampires to do good, hell it's your army and your fluff, no matter what I say go do your own thing and what you think is right, because that's what I do. I can buy that some vampires do evil things because they have to and deep down have good intentions. I still can't buy that some vampires would actually do any good deed unless indirectly or if it benefited him in the long run. I think the need to feed and the dark magic vampires are so naturally attuned to would make most choose the option to be evil rather than good.

Yes, people say Sylvanians had it pretty good with Vlad, but anyone would have looked like a saint compared to the previous Count Otto Von Drak. Vlad did not treat his subjects well out of benevolence, but because he needed them for the same reason we keep cows and pigs well before they eventually get run through the slaughterhouse. Is this an 'evil' thing? To the vampires no, we're nothing more than animals to sate their irresistible need to feed. To us humans? Yes, it is evil. If a man conquered or bought your town and treated you fairly, but took a good number of your citizens to feed on, how would you feel about this morally? Yes vampires feed on humans out of their blood curse. The difference between vampires eating humans and say a shark eating humans is that the vampire knows what it is doing. Even if they don't think much of humans now, vampires still remember their former lives and they know the impact they have on human society. If cows and livestock had freewill and intelligence, what would they think of us? Would they think of us as good or evil? Would the millions of now thoughtful cows just accept the mass genocide of their species because we're bigger on the food chain and we have a hunger to manage?

I'll even bring up Ushoran, he fed on the criminals and scum of his city not because of kindness to his people, but to keep a low profile and keep his populace under control. As a clown themed criminal once said, it's all "part of the plan", no one will care if some death-sentenced criminals get eaten by their vampire lords but if suddenly merchants and nobles started disappearing well then everybody loses their minds.

If we're talking perspective then we have look at it from our perspective. To us, are vampires evil? If Warhammer vampires existed in our world what would everyones opinions on them be? Would we treat them like criminals, mental patients, or an animal that's just a bit higher on the food chain.

 

[Danceman]

There is no fluff on this, and as far as I'm concerned my vamps are more than capable. Similar to Genevieve in the said novels.

The vampire is a dead thing. A lifeless being with no blood circulation, no beating heart. The only thing keeping it from turning into a decomposing mess is the essence of life, or rather, the lifeforce within blood or a more direct path of feeding directly on raw magic(as Pietr does in the current army book when slaying orcs).

Vampires pleasures tend to involve blood and teeth.

As for good or evil, kind or mean, it all comes down to who the person was in life. Vampirism in WHFB adds ambition and lust for power. What power and the ambition instilled to achieve it remains with the human who's been turned.

 

[Knightofni]

There is no fluff on this, and as far as I'm concerned my vamps are more than capable. Similar to Genevieve in the said novels.

The vampire is a dead thing. A lifeless being with no blood circulation, no beating heart. The only thing keeping it from turning into a decomposing mess is the essence of life, or rather, the lifeforce within blood or a more direct path of feeding directly on raw magic(as Pietr does in the current army book when slaying orcs).

Vampires pleasures tend to involve blood and teeth.

That's true.

But if a vampire can animate itself.. i.e move it's arms and legs, which scientifically it shouldn't be able to do, since as you pointed out, it has no functional circulatory system nor a heartbeat... then it stands also to reason that the same vampire should be able to animate other parts of it's body as well; if not through blood circulation then through willpower.

As for good or evil, kind or mean, it all comes down to who the person was in life. Vampirism in WHFB adds ambition and lust for power. What power and the ambition instilled to achieve it remains with the human who's been turned.

Vampires are no less good nor evil then any other person. When granted the gift of vampirism, people lose most if not all of their inhibitions... they get almost free reign to do as they please; all those darkest desires, fantastical daydreams... everything a human being has ever wanted to do.

Inevitably this leads to a life of mindless self-indulgence, hedonism, sadism, selfishness etc... but this isn't exactly evil since most human beings in the warhammer world would live that kind of life if they had the opportunity... in fact quite a lot do...

So I think it is their lingering traces of humanity that actually would make them evil; though the term evil is subjective and though the perspective of warhammer is often written from the Empires POV these views might not always be accurate.

 

[Danceman]

Erection through willpower. Sure, I can buy into that even though it more coloured by our desires than that of a vampire. I just think the whole sexual thing is something stuck in the minds of mortals. The sex-drive is still there as his hunger and so on but a vampire isn't mortal, or human at all, the sex drive is altered. Its appetites changes. In essence it is a new beast entirely. So even though the mortal may have been obsessed with sex it would probably shift to a rather bloody affair.

To me it is the good old vampire myth. Mortals view vampires as something sensual and beautiful but this is far from mutual. Humans tend to be the object of pleasure between two vampires, the whole 'forbidden fruit' aspect, spilling blood and playing upon human's sexual drive.

As for good and evil, it can certainly be used with a useful manner. Just describe what you think good and evil acts are. To me for example, a selfish and hedonistic person will in almost every case be defined as a wicked/evil person by me. Simply because this combination ensures he or she will do what she wants for her, and only her, as long as it makes her feel good. A person of this nature is a threat to my own happiness as my approach on life is lived with 'my guard down' so to speak. He or she would inevitably prey on this and depending on his or hers capabilities might just use me or worse.

Vamparism is a curse, which creates a parasitic being. It wants to mimic human society but it can't. While trying to maintain stability it must by its very nature destablise it. It doesn't age, its mind is a broken watch which does not really change and change probably is as much of a danger as any sharp blade is. Humans notice things, especially if their lords, counts, dukes or kings seem to live forever. There are of course ways to avoid this, as the Lahmian sisterhood figured out... Humans can be quite useful.

My point is, a vampire is a parasite. They want the life they had at the cost of those around them(a rather steep cost, namely, death). This, unsupringly, generates resistance.

 

[Pulimuli]

Vlad wasn't all that bad, while he might not have been the nicest guy around he wanted to unite the empire under one emperor (himself). He was also more human than most other vampires, he was like Jerek. Vlad could feel love for Isabella, something the other vampires cannot.

Also about the sex thing, i dont recall reading anywhere that they can or cannot have sex so i guess its up to our imagination?

While Mannfred was certainly pure evil and Konrad was.. a lunatic

 

[Danceman]

The way vampires are described and how the vampire is the incarnation of forbidden fruit(sex) by human mythology. Mainly.

Vampire are described as dead decaying beasts, which struggle even to maintain humanoid form. This, and the shift in both psyche and hunger would make an interest or posibility for the vampire to engage of the human act of sex unlikely(though I'd say impossible). I certainly can see a sexuallly active human in life becoming quite unrestrained when it comes to consuming blood and very likely to loose him/herself in bloody orgies... But sex, nope, that is a human thing. Vampires are after all not human at all, their humanoid forms are more a product of familiarity.

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

I agree that they could have sex, but most would probably see sucking blood as the vampiric equivalent. Skeletor, thanks for pointing out the motivations of Vlad and Ushoran, I'm not much of a fluff junkie so thanks for the details. I still retain the view that evil being subjective means its hard to say they're good or evil. Instead I think they could perform good or bad acts, but lean towards opposing the mortal races because the mortals oppose them and their blood drinking ways. My reasoning for the potential to be good is that some humans work with vampires (for a variety of reasons) and so the vampires accept them and their ways.

By the way, loved the Batman reference linked to Vampires.
Konrad: "Why so serious." (C'mon, you know Konrad is the vampiric version of the Joker)
Even the lorry used by the joker specifically says 'Slaughter is the best medicine'
The war paint around his mouth... its not war paint.