Grave Guard and ASF

[Abbysal]

Does a GG unit with great weapons given ASF via VDM go at Initiative value in 8th?

Great weapons have Always strikes last now and ASL cancels out ASF so will Vanhels be less effective now?:zombie:

 

[Udo]

I think it will still be nice in that it still gives the free movement. As well as the fact that there are a lot of units that have less initiative than 3 or exactly at 3 meaning that they will strike before or at the same time as a lot of units.

 

[witchking1980]

Casting Vanhel's on Grave Guard with GWs when you fight against a unit with GWs gives you just re-roll to hit even if the opponent unit has biggest initiative than your unit, the hits are inflicted at the same time in the round of combat(like 40K) or you just move your unit if not in combat.

 

[Sception]

OP has it right. Vanhel's on a unit in combat gives ASF and re-rolls to hit. Great Weapons have ASL. The effects of ASF and ASL cancel each other out, so you get the Grave Guard attacking with Great Weapons at their normal listed initiative with re-rolls to hit.

Great Weapons are still probably the better choice for grave guard, but it's worth a little experimenting to test them out both ways.

 

[Xacatecas]

Great Weapons are still probably the better choice for grave guard, but it's worth a little experimenting to test them out both ways.

Perhaps - 2 units with ASF strike simlutaniously regardless of initiative and with graveguard having higher initiative than average, the rerolls you could get with ASF would make hand weapons way more useful against anything that isnt cavalry or a monster

 

[Originman]

Init 3 is NOT higher than average.
Its probably not even average.

You're beating dwarves, lizards, and Orc core troops really

 

[Abbysal]

So it beats 3-4 out of about 10 armies not bad really!:zombie:

 

[Danceman]

Even if you do not strike first, re-rolling to hit is still good considering how easy it is for us to cast VDM.

 

[VladtheLad]

Yes the ASF bonus is basically lost but the increased number of attacks and the guarantee that you will strike back make re-rolling to hit much more useful than before (for the GW graveguard at least).

 

[Strig]

Sunday I am running a "Learn the rules Tourny" and I have 20 GG with GWs on which i plan to use Vanhels quite a bit (for movement at least) so I will let you know they fair with all those rerolls once they get into combat.

I hope they do well!

- Strig

 

[Sception]

Perhaps - 2 units with ASF strike simultaneously regardless of initiative and with grave guard having higher initiative than average, the re-rolls you could get with ASF would make hand weapons way more useful against anything that isn't cavalry or a monster

Arguable. I mean, even against infantry, it's the difference between wounding on a 3 or 4 with a -1 armor save and wounding on a 2 with a -3 armor save. Seems to me like that kind of difference in offensive output is going to outweigh the points, defensive, and initiative difference of the hand weapons. Especially if you further enhance your grave guard with magic banners, helm of commandment, and so on.

Init 3 is NOT higher than average.
Its probably not even average.

You're beating dwarves, lizards, and Orc core troops really

You're also beating Ogres, which are massively improved by 8th edition. You also beat great weapon users from pretty much any race other then high elves, and with two ranks attacking and survivors always striking back, great weapons in general should be pretty common in 8th edition. There are also a few independent monsters with initiative 2 or lower.


I'll likely stick to shields on my grave guard for aesthetic reasons, and they have been improved in some ways, but I still think great weapons are going to be the way to go for optimization.

 

[Fallen Angel]

OR you can just cast the sixth spell from lore of shadows and VDM on your sword 'n board GG's and have them strike first at S6 re-rolling misses and still being able to parry. But that's just a thought..