Grave Guard With Hand Weapons & Shields

[Andy2D6]

I'm looking at buying some Mantic Revenant models to use as Grave Guard, but I'm pretty sure they don't have the option of being modelled with great weapons (without major converting).

Is it worth taking the unit with hand weapons & shields?

Games Workshop's Grave Guard are 4x more expensive, per model.

 

[Narenzade]

The only way I've played GG are with great weapons. The parry save doesn't seem to be worth losing the +2 Strength. 5+ Armor should be enough or irrelevant and generally if an attack negates a +5 it will negate a 4+ anyway.

 

[RobTheWise]

The short answer is: "Not really"

Great weapons on GG are just so much better. They are already slower than most things and who needs the extra protection when they can be raised so quickly.

 

[Lord Sathir]

Great Weapons are awesome, but sometimes I prefer to take Hand Weapons as I3 is enough to be faster then Dwarfs and Orcs which could give me some advantage instead of striking last.. also against HE i'm quite fond of using Hand weapon and Shield because that way the unit can take more punishment then they could with Great Weapons also they would wound HE already on a 3+ so a 2+ is not that nessesary in my eyes.

 

[RobTheWise]

Personally I would still prefer GW vs Helves.

There is a big difference between 3+ and 2+. Spearmen are already terrible vs T4 units, and the things in the Helf army that are gonna kill you (Swordmasters / White Lions), are going to kill you regardless of your kit. However, the elite units are often small and expensive. I would rather take the extra damage and kill as many back as possible because their guys wont come back

I can see it making a difference against Phoenix Guard though.

 

[Lord Sathir]

have not played much against High Elves yet, so what can this Phoenix Guard do, that it would make difference between GW and H&S?

 

[Yorga]

The parry save is nice and if you run in Horde formation you are like to get a number of killing blows.

But otherwise the GW are the way to go since they will usually strike last anyway.

 

[RobTheWise]

have not played much against High Elves yet, so what can this Phoenix Guard do, that it would make difference between GW and H&S?

It's just because they are S4 which means they are only wounding on 4s and you get a 5+ save when you run hw&s and in the same way there is a big difference between 2+ and 3+ to wound, there is also a big difference between 5+ and 6+ to save. The Swordmasters are S5 + so you're looking at a 6+ against many many attacks save or no save against the S6 white lions.

It's more about just killing them. You want to stop as many of those Always Strike First, WS5, S6 attacks as possible, and you will get maximum kills with S6 Grave Guard.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Main difference in Phoenix Guard is they get a 4+ ward save. They're hard to chew through.

 

[Bounce]

I also bought Mantic revenants for graveguard. Very tempting to just say they have great wepons.

 

[Loempiaketzer]

i, for probably the only one, disagree with great weapons being better.
S6 is nice and all. Hitting on 3+ is also nice but the unit gets so expensive and meat grinder-ish.

Also, if you only depend on these guys, nuke spells will kill you. and opponents who can lay down some heavy fire and dispel you 2/3 neheks a turn you will see your unit crumbling much faster than you hoped.

Eating up a 500 pnt unit with some magic or shooting, spending a chariot or 2 on it and then slaying it with a large block of Statis combat rez.
or perhaps getting 500pnt of your units chasing chaff,....

im just saying. i run only 2 characters in 2500 at the moment (SGK and Master Necro) and nehek isnt my main spell... i try to build my units so they can last on their own without resurections so i get more mileage out of my magic offense...

thats just my 2 cents

 

[Questioner]

I prefer Swords and Boards also. I prefer the extra armour and parry to the extra strength.

 

[Gaze-bo]

you don't want Grave Guards to fight Phoenix Guards anyway, for that I use The other trickster shard .

I have tried both and against all armies I've met so far GW is the way to go for me.

 

[MadLarkin]

If I only run one unit of GG I prefer GW's but I think HW/S can work if your running a buff heavy army with a corpse cart. Not having great weapons means you actually benefit from ASF

So to sum up: GW are better at acting unsupported. HW/S benefit more from support.

 

[Soren]

There was a thread recently about GG with HW&Sh, you might search for it.

For me the bottom line is that Strength is KING! If you are making an all comers list then GW GG are your best bet. If you only fight T3 opponents with low strength, then HW&Sh is the way to go.

 

[Kingside_Bishop]

I agree with the consensus -- great weapons have got to be the way to go. You probably won't ever really regret taking them, but there will be times when you regret not.

 

[Lord Klobuk]

Against Bretonnia sword and board grave guard do well,they get their saves,strike at the same time as the knights,and because of S 4 wound on a 3+ and the ward save is only 6+ rather then 5+...and killing blows too :devil2:. After they survive the charge you can hopefully raise them and the knights lose their lance bonuses so you can pretty much grind them down and vs other not insanely hard hitting they can hold their own too,monsterous cav. is a bad match for them though.

 

[Bounce]

What would people's opinions be on how wide frontage should be for grave guard and should you go differently between HW/S and GW?
On one side you can get a hell of a lot more attacks but on the other you will get a lot of attacks coming back at you and this would make it harder to re raise all those guys. Plus I was also thinking if your Vampire/BSb or whatever is in the unit he will find it harder to be in range of any other units for spell casting and the like.

 

[RobTheWise]

Against Bretonnia sword and board grave guard do well,they get their saves,strike at the same time as the knights,and because of S 4 wound on a 3+ and the ward save is only 6+ rather then 5+...

Yeh, Bret Knights do hate S4, but they are also the perfect candidate for Zombie tarpiting. Then being flanked . . . by great weapons

What would people's opinions be on how wide frontage should be for grave guard and should you go differently between HW/S and GW?
On one side you can get a hell of a lot more attacks but on the other you will get a lot of attacks coming back at you and this would make it harder to re raise all those guys. Plus I was also thinking if your Vampire/BSb or whatever is in the unit he will find it harder to be in range of any other units for spell casting and the like.

I tend to field units of about 21 to 30 GG with great weapons. I go 7 wide in general, but will combat reform even wider if I need it.

In regards to characters, I run a combat Vamp but don't always field him with the GG, it depends on the enemy. If I am against empire, or skaven (armies with "softer" units), I can afford to have him sit with some Skeletons, but against tougher armies (and by tougher I mean higher toughness and armour, like Chaos or Ogres) I field him with the GG because the Skeles pretty much become another tarpit against them.

 

[Friendly Dead]

I swear by Sword'N Board GG.

Thats due to some factors that may not be applicable for all.

1. Implaying a lot against High elves, skaven and daemons.

Against Skaven the greatweapons just isnt needed. Sword' Board is more than enough against anything but the HPit.

Against High elves SnB is the superior choice against Phoenix Guard and Spearmen, which I've found to be the more troublesome units. Especially since neither type of GG should be fighting off the white lions.

Against daemons most of the benefits of high STR is negated by the ward saves anyway.

2. I dont run crypt horrors, so SnB GG comes handy as a flexible unit that can act as both hammer and anvil.

3. Running Blood Knights in most of my lists I dont need high str attacks that badly.

4. Since I play against HE and daemons a lot I will often get a corpse cart. SnB have some very good synergy here

 

[Chaos_Born]

I would say that GW GG are better, but HW&S certainly have their place if you need an anvil (so if you run a medium unit of blood knights for example). For unit size I'd say 20-30 is best for the HW&S and you want the frontage firmly set at 5. If you're trying to kill people fast, you take GW. If you've taken HW&S you have no reason to broaden your frontage - you just end up taking more attacks when you're trying to be an anvil. Not good.

 

[Friendly Dead]

I would say that GW GG are better, but HW&S certainly have their place if you need an anvil (so if you run a medium unit of blood knights for example). For unit size I'd say 20-30 is best for the HW&S and you want the frontage firmly set at 5. If you're trying to kill people fast, you take GW. If you've taken HW&S you have no reason to broaden your frontage - you just end up taking more attacks when you're trying to be an anvil. Not good.

Well that depends.

Usually their Str 4 with KB, +1 to hit banner and potential reroll to hit from corpse cart ASF or Vanhel's means their potential in offense is more than enough. Most times Ive found that GW's are just overkill. GW grave guards risk being overwhelmed before I can heal them back up if they fall afoul of white lions or a big unit of ogres.

It's also here the corpse cart rly shines. In addition to the extra save SnB have against units like the above, a corpse cart will allow them rerolls against the ogres and deny the white lions theirs whereas the GW GG will have neither option.

I just find that SnB give me more options as well as more time to save the unit with IoN...noone likes giving away 500 pts

 

[Chaos_Born]

But a horde of GW will kill so many more than the equivalent of HW&S. Take the big unit of ogres for example, wounding on 2s instead of 4s. That's 22(ish) wounds rather than 13(ish). Sure you may get +1 armour and parry, but against ironguts (the far more common core ogre choice) you'll only get parry, which I don't really think is worth the tradeoff in crumbling from dealing 9 less wounds (and don't forget that he'll get an armour save still).

Once you get past 25/30 guys the GW become the better choice all around. They actually wind up more survivable against strong enemies (including things like White Lions) because you'll lose combat by so much less.

 

[UndeadSi87]

I run a 29 man unit of GG with GW's with a vampire caster in the front rank. I usually have a necromancers in a skeleton unit backing them up on a flank and slightly behind to prevent and flanking charges.

The general Idea is to Dance them up the field and Dance them when in combat. The Necro's job is pretty much to just keep the unit moving forward and the Vampire handles the strikes first.