So what do you guys think about investing 135 points into a vampire with forbidden lore-beast in a magic heavy army, and using 6 dice turn 1 to turn him into a great fire dragon. If you miscast it doesnt really matter because hes still a dragon, and can take the hits with his 8 wounds and if he loses wizard levels it doesnt really matter since he's still a dragon. Only bad one is the first one which would be very unfortunate to roll.
Great Fire Dragon Turn 1
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Tamodan Varison
Grave Guard
I wouldn't do it, for a single very simple reason: It's RIP. Either you cast it not-irresistable, in which case it will get scrolled, or you cast it Irresistable, you become a dragon and your opponent dispels it with a scroll/dice in his turn, so you're all on you're own to get shot. I would charge him into a unit and then turn him into a dragon if you really wanted to try this tactic. If it works, it's devastating, but it's quite a risky investement... Let us now how it works!
Tamodan Varison
Grave Guard
As far as I was aware that spell was permanent? Basically if successful it can't be undone, you loose your wizard but you get the monster. Could be wrong though......
Tamodan Varison said:
No, it is not allowed to use a scroll on a spell that is not being cast - if its a RiP you can scroll it when its cast, not the turn after when its in play.
And the spell in RiP, not permanant, so it can be dispelled at a later time if they can't get it when you cast it.
Yes, but using six dice they will need a lot of dispel dice to stop you, even in later turns...then you can just do it again in your magic phase.
Even if they do commit craploads of dice, it means you can raise however you like! Almost a free magic phase as they waste dice trying to stop a dragon.
Even if they do commit craploads of dice, it means you can raise however you like! Almost a free magic phase as they waste dice trying to stop a dragon.
Vlad Von Carstien
Grave Guard
I did it in a game on turn 4 It was hilarious I took a str 10 hit but I had 7 more wounds to beat down people with .
But I baited them into using their dispel scroll on summon undead horde. So I would try to get them to use their dispel scroll first.
But I baited them into using their dispel scroll on summon undead horde. So I would try to get them to use their dispel scroll first.
Tamodan Varison
Grave Guard
Sorry to resurrect this, but I thought it would be quite ridiculous to make a whole new topic. I think I shot this one to early, it combines very well with the Power Scroll (IF and miscast on any double).
Vampire with Forbidden Lore and Power scroll 170
Just stick him in a unit for the rank bonus, so the opponent can't get Steadfast, charge any enemy unit, end your next magic fase by rolling 4 dice at the highest level and use the power scroll, you turn into a dragon first, so you'll probably survive the miscast, and you have a very strong dragon for 170 points
We should be able to take out any unit this way...
Vampire with Forbidden Lore and Power scroll 170
Just stick him in a unit for the rank bonus, so the opponent can't get Steadfast, charge any enemy unit, end your next magic fase by rolling 4 dice at the highest level and use the power scroll, you turn into a dragon first, so you'll probably survive the miscast, and you have a very strong dragon for 170 points
We should be able to take out any unit this way...
i'm reading now the exact rule:
Dispel scroll: "a scroll can only dispel a spell in the moment it is cast and NOT if it is cast with IF"
Dispelling: "A remain in play spell can be dispelled in later turns using either DISPEL dice, OR ENERGY dice, and the dificulty is equal to the original dif needed to cast the spell, NOT the roll achieved by the caster"
So i think those dragons could be dispelled with some effort, but quite effectively....
Dispel scroll: "a scroll can only dispel a spell in the moment it is cast and NOT if it is cast with IF"
Dispelling: "A remain in play spell can be dispelled in later turns using either DISPEL dice, OR ENERGY dice, and the dificulty is equal to the original dif needed to cast the spell, NOT the roll achieved by the caster"
So i think those dragons could be dispelled with some effort, but quite effectively....
Forget the dragon, why not go with the Chimera? THAT is the real winner for the 20+ cast on Lore of Beasts. And as a side question, would the transformed model still benefit from IoN? I see where you lose the magical abilities of items in your possession but I do not see anything taking away from Vampire powers or being able to be affected by other Vamp powers. Oh my I can see so many crazy and insane killer ways to keep myself alive and Red Fury on a Chimera?! Please tell me I'm dreaming!
Ok let's do some more reading:
" a transformed wizard cannot channel, cast spells and all equipment, magical or mundane, cant be used temporarily. Also, any wounds are carried over new form (so going again into insta-kill)"
nothing more is said, so i assume that you retain all your special rules. Undead for vampires, hatred for Dark elves, ASF for elves, and of course any build in powers you may have (beguile, someone said?, dark aura?)
Also it haven't benn FAQ'ed yet, so this is how it works for me.
" a transformed wizard cannot channel, cast spells and all equipment, magical or mundane, cant be used temporarily. Also, any wounds are carried over new form (so going again into insta-kill)"
nothing more is said, so i assume that you retain all your special rules. Undead for vampires, hatred for Dark elves, ASF for elves, and of course any build in powers you may have (beguile, someone said?, dark aura?)
Also it haven't benn FAQ'ed yet, so this is how it works for me.
Its clearly a RaW/RaI issue - like the whole issue with wraiths being immune to crumble. They quite clearly intended that as a dragon/chimera you lose all of what you used to have until you return to your previous form. As for the special rules, the dragon's replace yours as it does with the stat line. If you must, thgink of it that you are too unsure of your new form to benefit from whatever special rules you have, or your new body isn't fast enough to have ASF, hatred etc
Though an undead greater fire dragon would make an AWESOME model!
Though an undead greater fire dragon would make an AWESOME model!
That merely demonstrates the inherent fallacy of the RAI argument, we have no way of knowing in what way the rules are intended, and "it's obvious" is no evidence at all.
I still haven't got the new rulebook (should be delivered in the next couple of days) so I can't debate the ins & outs of these particular rules, but i can say for certain that 'rules as printed' trumps 'intentions as second-guessed'. That said, I usually know a typo when I see one.
I still haven't got the new rulebook (should be delivered in the next couple of days) so I can't debate the ins & outs of these particular rules, but i can say for certain that 'rules as printed' trumps 'intentions as second-guessed'. That said, I usually know a typo when I see one.
Yeah, and in 40K RAW said for a while that Terminators didn't have Terminator Armor, and (supposedly) that Deffrollas didn't affect vehicles, etc. etc. etc.
And of course "you" can know a typo when you see one because "it's obvious" right? Sorry, RAI is often much more obvious than a typo. RAW is a load of bat guano. Dakka has a list of ways in which the game becomes virtually unplayable when RAW is applied through-out. Such as one scenario which cannot even be played because they don't include "start the game" as they do with the other scenarios.
That's my opinion, and I won't argue it any further for the same reason that I won't argue religion.:grave:
And of course "you" can know a typo when you see one because "it's obvious" right? Sorry, RAI is often much more obvious than a typo. RAW is a load of bat guano. Dakka has a list of ways in which the game becomes virtually unplayable when RAW is applied through-out. Such as one scenario which cannot even be played because they don't include "start the game" as they do with the other scenarios.
That's my opinion, and I won't argue it any further for the same reason that I won't argue religion.:grave:
I used this spell last weekend first turn. I got it off with a miscast.
Couple things to note:
1. The spell finishes before the miscast. That means do not place the template before you put in the new model base. That way you wont blow up as many troops.
2. Your opponent will go crasy trying to dispel it. Mine was useing his power dice and dispel dice to go for it.
3. It's hard to get that 20 than you might think. I made it past 3 magic phases before dispeled.
4. Your opponent is not restricted to 6 dispel dice at a time, he got me with 7.
5. Do not cast it out of close combat. My only charge my opponent flee'd and I was left high and dry with no unit support.
Couple things to note:
1. The spell finishes before the miscast. That means do not place the template before you put in the new model base. That way you wont blow up as many troops.
2. Your opponent will go crasy trying to dispel it. Mine was useing his power dice and dispel dice to go for it.
3. It's hard to get that 20 than you might think. I made it past 3 magic phases before dispeled.
4. Your opponent is not restricted to 6 dispel dice at a time, he got me with 7.
5. Do not cast it out of close combat. My only charge my opponent flee'd and I was left high and dry with no unit support.
Correct. It's not evidence based, just good sense. Good sense trumps pedantry.Zanthor said:
Pardon me, in my haste to get my opinion to press I neglected to add "and am perfectly willing to discuss with an opponent any potential misinterpretations in a rational manner." I'll put that in a note on my desktop so I can copy & paste it into every post on the subject, along with "this post may not be suitable for persons sensitive to sarcasm or prone to suffering severe inflammation of the reactionary glands". I know full well how cack-handed GW can be with the minutiae, & it always needs a bit of glossing over from practical players.
*Breathes*
If he does keep his bloodline powers, what about an ethereal firedragon? could it work any ideas?