Healing the community

[najo]

I'm going to address the obvious. Warhammer Fantasy being killed off has fractured our community. Each of us is attempting to resolve the fracture in different ways. Influenced by our own local scene, we are either exploring AoS, continuing to play 8th or looking at alternatives like Kings of War. I think the mindset behind each one is:

Age of Sigmar is the path forward for GW, so fans of the fluff and official support are trying to make this work.

Warhammer 8th is the game we are all currently united around and until now, most recently playing. We all have material to play 8th and it has the fluff and rules. It won't remain updated, but it won't change either. It is mostly complete. Players who want to keep a semblance of the game we play want this option.

Kings of War and other systems all lack something Warhammer fans want, but it will have ongoing support. It won't have official fluff or work with new models, there will be lots of count as. But for those angry with GW or wanting a active system, one of the alternatives maybe be the route for them.

The problem is we all played Warhammer and its various editions. That is what this site was based around. Now Warhammer is no longer supported and all the alternatives are subpar for most of us as a whole. Essentially some of us are willing to work with AoS and some of us KoW and some of us stay with 8th. Its about evenly divided between the three if you check out the polls.

What I know is the fun, friendliness and coming together to share fantasy wargaming vibe that was here is suffering. Members are emotional, frustrated and getting into debates that are driving the community apart (myself included). I believe all of us have the best intention of bringing the community together, but we are each fighting for our solution that doesn't take into count the entirety of the community.

I personally would have preferred for a legitimate 9th edition to arrive. If it had, we most likely would be discussing rules and army builds right now. We don't have that. We might never have that. I know I want it bad enough, that I'm tempted to compile it myself just to put together the vision of what I see that could of been. Honestly, it wouldn't be much more work than all of those Battlescribe files lol.

If you want my absolute dead honest opinion on this whole fiasco that GW has created, they made a huge mistake. I think they could have accomplished what AoS is meant to accomplish without destroying everything that came before. There could of been a smoother transition, still have 4 pages of quick play rules and give the veterans a fuller Warhammer setting and game system to play with, that still was square based, had regimental tactics but was friendly to new players. AoS has merits. There is some very progressive and bold steps it takes. But it cuts too deep and casts away 30 years of trust and fandom. GW also is lumping two types of competitive player together and demonizing both. There are vets who enjoy competitive play, build their armies, recruit new players, share with family and friends and are pillars of the community. Then there are over-competitive WAAC, don't care about the game or the community assholes that ruin everyone's fun. GW wrongly perceives these two as the same thing. In my opinion, the first way out weighs the latter, but its the loudest asshole that gets the attention. GW is trying to stamp those guys out and in the process has stamped most of us out. This has resulted in them throwing out the baby with the bathwater and that has fractured the community severely.

So, I'm interested in us discussing with out getting into factions or positioning on game systems, what do we need as a community to heal this rift. We've all been frustrated, arguments have occurred, members who were friendly divided into camps. Misunderstandings and emotions are rampant. We need to stop, forgive and some together and heal as a community. How do we do that? What do we need to be whole again? Speak freely and let's stay positive and non-judgmental, put all of us whole as a community first.

So let's hear those ideas or just get out what you've been needing to say.

 

[Dakaar]

I honestly dont see how coming together can be done, the 3 systems are so different that any discussions relevant to one regarding tactics, enemies, background/fluff etc wont apply to the others. Basically the community will become made up of smaller sub communities. Overal general fiction, general discussion area and modelling are the only things the whole community could come together in as far as i can see.

I would also say its really an even 4 way split between KoW, AoS, warhammer 8th and other version of warhammer, going by the poll.

 

[Cela Shyish]

@najo well we can start by "summing" together, instead of being "some" together just a lil light hearted joke but seriously I think that's what this forum needs. There has been quite a heavy atmosphere with the divide so its been a lot less common for jokes to come around on the subject of the actual game.

So my thoughts are ideally 2 changes. One I know you can't really do yet but it is worth noting. So the big one, as you pointed out we are already basically divided into camps, so start 3 forum sections, one for 8th, one for AoS and one for KoW. That way it will be easier for like-minded people to gather, but without DoN I imagine that will be difficult.

And number 2, I noticed that people that were familiar before the topic of AoS and KoW came up are more likely to discuss on friendly terms. E.g. The other day I was talking to @Mad 'At on chat and while we haven't talked long, we did talk in a friendly manner on subjects outside of Warhammer, now we are very different players (he loves tournaments, I love casual and loathe the tournament setting) so naturally when the topic came up of AoS we disagreed, but we did it in a respectful way and in the end started finding various ways of saying "I agree with you" in long drawn out messages of saying plans for going forward. (Which made me laugh) but it does make a lot of sense that people who are talking in a friendly manner and becoming familiar with eachother before bringing in topics they disagree on are more likely to listen to other's opinions and find a middle-ground.

Another example of that is a friend of mine IRL. He has been on the war path about AoS and won't listen to a word anyone else says, this has sparked a lot of conflicts between him and nearly all of his friends. However, he has always had a lot of respect for me and we've been best friends for 6 years now so when I started to talk to him on the topic, he still put forward arguments but he was taking in what I was saying, so now rather than being ready to burn his armies, he told me that he'll have to see me play the game and show him a lot of the intricacies and balance in order for him to play it, but when that's compared to him flat-out refusing to try it whenever anyone else asked, it does imply that it depends on the relationship of people as to how much they listen to others.

So my suggestion is, expand the "Mortal's Realm" section with more team building things and encourage more users to frequent that and chat. This way people can get to know eachother and put aside differing opinions for a bit of fun. We have lots of nice people on here and there have been many arguments sparked from misunderstandings. I do recall defending @najo in a topic where a few people thought he was being disrespectful and simply trying to force his opinion on others. But he agreed when I pointed out that was the last thing he was trying to do, likewise the people who seemed to be disrespecting him then apologised and everyone acknowledged that everyone was just a bit too worked up on the subject. It only worked out because it was resolved early on, it could have easily bred bad blood between good people because of simple misunderstood intentions. This is why I believe the most important thing we can do is to promote a friendly OOC atmosphere so we can each learn to interpret ideas and opinions put forward by others in a more positive light.

 

[najo]

Thank you for noticing my intentions Crystal, and I appreciate you speaking up before. I care about our community as a whole and I know I can be outspoken and direct, but never do I mean to disrespect or put down other people. Its easy to misunderstand online.

Good ideas so far, I think sharing our hobby activities with one another in a positive light and not getting into system debates is a good idea right now. Although separate forums eventually make sense. Perhaps right now everything being together could aid in the healing. Show us your battle reports for the various systems, share your new models and units like we've always have. Continue to ask for advice on your army and let the members of the community pop in who play that system. We can all appreciate the hobby as a whole, even if we aren't playing the same games right now. This cross pollinating could get us branching out into other games with each other.

Let's keep ideas coming and share your feelings everyone.

 

[Demian]

I think our union may come with our drive to be marvelled by a fantasy setting that includes Undead, Armies and heroes.

Vampire Counts is the only yet living vampire story that, while having it's flaws, is still the best. It creates an atmosphere of being, feeling and thinking like a general of the undead, waging war against the world and I think we all love that.

We could welcome all attempts to create that fantasy land, regardless of what game it is set on.

This recent change in GW's game as a whole did leave it's scars, and the only way I know how to heal is to press on forward, while not disrespecting the past and what let us here. This means I will always try to focus on the possibilities rather than the impediments.

We all like tabletop undead themed games, and so I will encourage any and everyone trying to enter or stay in such enviroment, regardless of game or company.

It's all I can think of for now .o.

 

[Mad 'At]

Good idea creating this thread @najo

I pretty much agree with what has been said, but much like the discussions I had with @Crystal, I'd like to put it in my own words ^^

The community will split. This is a fact, though it doesn't have to be so severe. I think splitting the forum into 3 sections for the different game is essential (AoS, 8th + 8th mods and KoW). That way we won't be stepping on each others toes all the time. Nothing stops members from being active in several of these sections though, as I'm sure some people will be interested is several of the option. I know I will be seen most frequently in the 8th section, but might stop by AoS if I ever do get the time to try it out.

Dividing the community isn't even something new to warhammer. With such a wide hobby there has always been different camps. Those who enjoy the game, the painting or the fluff for starters. There were some member who hung out in the Chronicles of Death section that I didn't get in touch with for a really long time. We have always had the freedom to pick which parts of the forum we want to visit, now we just will have slightly more sections.

We also will have some places where people from the different playsets can mingle. The Mortals Realm is one of them obviously. Dark Arts will also not need to suffer from the split, as others have mentioned. The painting part of the hobby will remain pretty much the same.

All in all I think the most important thing to do is to get these different sections. It will all calm down eventually.

 

[Atrophus]

Gotta agree with everything being said here, splitting the forum into AoS, 8th and KoW(plus other systems) is essential I think.

Perhaps maybe some sort of painting or fluff/story competition? With some sort of new title or such for the winners?
I know that we all can appreciate that side of the hobby whether it's set in the old world, or anywhere else

I'm gonna do some more thinking about this and see if I can come up with any ideas I think would be useful.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

The main concern from that True Blood thread was there aren't any mods with a working knowledge of KoW. Here, as there, I support new subforums for KoW and AoS. Council of the Night will need a little altering--maybe even just slight changes to those board descriptions, but Dark Arts will fly as it is.

And I've refrained from much discussion on it lately, but honestly I decided to take a full step backwards from the whole thing until the dust settles. I'm playing with smaller scale OOP games instead of anything massed battle. Painting on my backlog as the mood strikes me. Basically, keeping things chill and unstressed.

As contradictory as it sounds, though, I think dividing the forums will unite the community. As soon as people started asking others to keep their rants in threads that pertained to them (instead of say, bitching about KoW in a thread asking for KoW tactical advice), things calmed a bit. Dedicated space for each maintains that cease fire.

There is no Warhammer Fantasy Vampire Army anymore--officially--so what's left is the folks who want wargames with an undead lean. CN can be a place for all undead wargamming.

 

[Zephyr]

Agreed, we need to build on what is still there to unite us. The hobby, love of Undead gribblies, wargaming(in whatever form) and the fact that we've simply always been a friendly bunch! This forum is so cool compared to some of the hatefests out there.
Even with this crisis going on you don't see much of the extreme hatred going on elsewhere, it's directed towards the change, not the person liking it and let us keep it that way.
I don't see myself leaving anytime soon and who knows what the future might bring? I'm not one to set fire to my beloved armies and flip the bird at the community. It's still there, official support or not. Maybe it's because I still play all the Specialist Games. They did not die on me either, they actually grew. Just like 40K kill team which has a fantastic fan base behind it creating lists.

 

[Sception]

I don't see this as a divide that can be healed. People come to this forum to discus the game and army they play, to participate in a community revolving around that game and army. It's not going to survive as an 'undead miniatures in general' community without a singular game to center discussion around. Instead we'll see a split between the games that will only widen with time. Eventually one or more games will continue while the others will die down. If discussion of more than one game persists, then it will become necessary to segregate discussion of those games into separate subforums, which might as well be separate forums altogether for what little they'll share in conversation or membership.

 

[Tawg]

If discussion of more than one game persists, then it will become necessary to segregate discussion of those games into separate subforums, which might as well be separate forums altogether for what little they'll share in conversation or membership.

Do you view this as entirely different from what @Mad 'At suggested?

Dividing the community isn't even something new to warhammer. With such a wide hobby there has always been different camps. Those who enjoy the game, the painting or the fluff for starters. There were some member who hung out in the Chronicles of Death section that I didn't get in touch with for a really long time. We have always had the freedom to pick which parts of the forum we want to visit, now we just will have slightly more sections.

The fact that there are different sections doesn't mean that there is a complete divide. There are at least 5-7 forums here on Carpe that I have never even touched, but I don't know that it makes it worthless for it to exist. It's simply not my deal. And perhaps the community may not cross paths if they choose not to play more than one of the versions or games presented, that's positively true. But if I mainly restrict my time to the Dark Arts forum I find much less of the players concerned with the latest and greatest combos/units/army builds. And that's fine, and I don't think it means that the forum is less for it. Maybe a user like that and I will never meet unless one of us chooses to explore Carpe for the sense of adventure we may enjoy, and the community we love in our little part of the forum. But either way, it doesn't mean one will be dying out because we are trying to spread ourselves thin. If any of those games end up dying out it will be on the merit of them not attracting players, or failing to keep those players. Much like 8th was already a relatively small community, if nothing had changed this forum would have perished on the basis of WHFB not supporting players not for want of Carpe's trying and failing.

And while what you said @Malisteen is true, that they could well be separate forums, all the same having them under one roof means people are potentially exposed to things they may have not seen otherwise. I could go to a forum that only did the hobby aspect of the game (Maybe, I have never tried, but I have also never seen one, I guess CoolMiniOrNot would be). But that doesn't mean that's the best choice for me, and there are certainly plenty of reasons to want to be around things you aren't as familiar with if you feel comfortable with the other areas presented.

I might be talking in circles, but do you see what I mean? Yeah they are separate, essentially. But being in the same Forum presents the choice to explore in a comfortable zone, so long as we as users on CN don't start thinking one section of the forum is filled with the "Dredges" of our shared experience, or pretending that other users opinions are less worthwhile. And then we have choices and varied opinions, which can only serve to help us. It'll just get messy when a new member goes to both sides and says "Why is your side better?" :ghost:

 

[Seneschal]

It can definitely work here, look at Ulthuan.net. They have an AoS section and one dedicated to 8th and they are both very active. CN might be one of the few forums on the net with more posts per day than them so we can most assuredly keep things going for both games here.

 

[najo]

@Tawg and @Seneschal nailed it on the head. I think the forum being united by undead armies, sharing projects and talking about our love for this hobby as a whole is very positive. Then seeing posts about games and strategies for Warhammer, AoS and KoW will keep me engaged and even might perk my interest in something I wasn't playing before. I think keeping us all under one roof is ideal and will be beneficial honestly.

 

[Emicrania]

The guys from swed comp are fixing a 9th ed with various top players around the world. I do not think there is nothing to heal. Maybe to be unite ,but the cut has been made from GW. They need to bleed,imo, deeply. So maybe they will learn.
Or maybe they won't,and finally we will use our community and internet for a better and more independent thinking.

 

[Dragonet]

I say separate forums for the individual games' rules and tactics; shared forums for everything else. That won't result in too many more forums, and plenty opportunity for cross-pollination without wading through a tonne of less interesting info on the way.

You'd also be able to attract other players from games like Warmaster, Warthrone, Hordes Of The Things and maybe even Warmachine that also have Undead armies, this could be an excellent opportunity to expand your readership through all the Internet hits rendered by the existence of those forum options, I'm sure they'll grow organically once the option to join in is there.

 

[logan054]

The guys from swed comp are fixing a 9th ed with various top players around the world. I do not think there is nothing to heal. Maybe to be unite ,but the cut has been made from GW. They need to bleed,imo, deeply. So maybe they will learn.
Or maybe they won't,and finally we will use our community and internet for a better and more independent thinking.

As someone who's played a Khorne army since 4th ed, I really wasn't impressed with frenzy being swapped for the chopper rule, I dare say I wasn't the only one either. It's a bit like removing the undead rule from undead because zombies need a buff.


More on topic, It would be great if we could heal the community, that's only really going to happen if we all have a central game to talk about. If you start segregating people you're really just dividing the community. I think people need to be a little realistic it here, atm, while people are still annoyed about AoS and the fate of 8th ed, all these threads about how great AoS is really just rubbing salt in the wounds of annoyed former players of warhammer.

 

[Dragonet]

I must say I disagree Logan, I am certainly one of those that feels GW's betrayal more keenly but I can't begrudge others' enjoyment of AoS, in fact I've played a couple of games and I enjoyed the speed and simplicity of it; of course it'll never replace WHFB but it doesn't have to, and I'm glad to say I haven't thrown a penny in GW's direction in the process.

I say the central theme's Vampire Counts, or hopefully from my perspective the Undead in general, within the wargaming world; having different outlets for creativity and spreading the net to catch as many diverse contributors as possible gives us all the best chance to draw inspiration from each other.

This forum needs to do what we all need to to: rise above it. Carpe Noctem is bigger than any single wargame in my opinion; you guys are the people I look to for ideas and feedback when I can't get my head round some rules, or hit a brick wall with my projects. I want to see it flush with success and glutted with the blood of fresh interest!

 

[Tawg]

How odd @Emicrania , I had never heard that malice was a virtue. But seriously, don't you think being so vindictive is a bit immature?

Also,

I think people need to be a little realistic it here, atm, while people are still annoyed about AoS and the fate of 8th ed, all these threads about how great AoS is really just rubbing salt in the wounds of annoyed former players of warhammer.

Eh, that's a little like suggesting that it's someone else's fault that continuing a discussion is aggravating to you. I could understand if for some reason, there was a respectable morning period observed for the late great WHFB's death, but that's not really a thing. It's not exactly a social standard for us to stop communication, and certainly you can't expect the forums to stop, that's potentially detrimental to their user base (Which they need to consider).

But really, someone else can't make your day worse. It's how you perceive the interaction. @Dragonet has been rather outstanding, and his post is very much a reflection of what I'd expect for a reasonable person. I can't expect everyone to like AoS, I rather much don't, but it is a bit off to say the ones who do are attempting harm on others by enjoying something new.

 

[Emicrania]

How odd @Emicrania , I had never heard that malice was a virtue. But seriously, don't you think being so vindictive is a bit immature?

I can't expect everyone to like AoS, I rather much don't, but it is a bit off to say the ones who do are attempting harm on others by enjoying something new.

Virtues can be faked,flaws are real.
Never intended to the perfect. Never will.
Besides, what is my enjoyment is not up to you to judge;especially when we are on a miniature wargaming forum,a bit odd talking about immaturity?

You can play "tomatina" with your miniature for all I care.
I think Ao$ is a stupid game that is played only because is from GW and have nothing to do with WHFB in any form.
I'm not calling anybody stupid. The game is stupid,not the people that playing it.
As I think fishing is boring,I don't think fisherman are boring.
Is it clear now?

Plus,i am really fond of this community.
Is the only reason I have the first army completely painted (@Mad 'At ,@Blutsauger ) or why I'm unbeatable with my VC and why I finally understand all the pros and cons of an army (@najo @The Sun King ).

 

[Orlaster]

I think that, in the wake of WHFB and its 30 years of history, there's such an enduring culture established on this forum that a rule change or new game even of this magnitude isn't going to make it disappear. I would be greatly saddened if that were the case- if AoS caused all the content on this board to become obsolete. As it stands, I'm already miffed by the current turn of events. All the time I've spent thinking about army composition and trying out tactics for 8th edition, as well as pouring over the VC army lists posted by @najo and @The Sun King might not mean as much in the eyes of GW anymore, but I'm damn well not going to stop now. I still have miniatures to paint! I never made that Varghulf I was planning. Or the black coach conversion. What about the empire estate troop or bretonnian peasants raised from the grave? The exquisitely crafted mordheim zombies?

As it stands, AoS is so different from WHFB that, as already suggested, different boards are going to be required for threads relating specifically to these games. I think this gives CN a great opportunity for proliferation and expansion. I'd suggest that this presents a window for other specialist and/or officially unsupported games to get their own subforums too. Mordheim, for example, is an enduringly popular game, and it could be a good platform for posting campaign ideas as well as new warbands and terrain. Citing exprofundis and the throne of bones page over there, forums like this give an excellent platform to those kind of projects. In the case of Carpe Noctem, it would just be a little bit more undead-themed. A point that I would imagine no one here having a problem with. The current undead background fluff given for AoS is quite frankly massively underwhelming and nowhere near as well rounded or interesting as that which had been previously developed. As such I don't think I can get on board with it and I'd much rather base an army or warband around the previous fluff or even just make something entirely different up myself, but the game itself I am willing to try. It seems more fluid in terms of its mechanics, the tactics behind it are more intricate than they first appear, and sometimes its nice to have something a little quicker to play.

Echoing @Emicrania I really appreciate the existence of this community. The inspiration it has provided and the opportunity to share progress in my hobby is invaluable. I'm still itching to paint and convert miniatures based on the lore that, although not officially supported by GW (and to be honest that doesn't really mean anything), still exists in previous editions of rulebooks and army books, as well as the literature in the black library and on this very forum. People still play Inquisitor, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, people still play Mordheim, and people will still play WHFB I am sure.

As a final point, I consider myself an undead player through and through. The signature under my post expresses my thoughts on the matter. I've had a Vampire Counts army, undead mordheim warband, and what have you, ever since I got into the hobby and can't imagine myself taking another route simply because of a change in the rules. Elves? nah. Chaos? nah. Empire? nah. Stormcast freakin' eternals?! Naaaaaaaaahhhh.

Skeletons. Skeletons and zombies all day (I mean night) long.

 

[Dragonet]

Spot on Orlaster! Mordheim and Quest, WHFRP, Man O War, even DnD... I really feel the games as topics of discussion will draw in people who would never have looked here otherwise, and will render a massive injection of perspective, creativity and support. We may see people on the literary side not only offering fan fiction, but maybe suggesting new source material or comparing notes on films, books, TV series, even cultural events related to death and the occult! As long as our beloved creatures of the night are the central theme I can't see any problem arising from it at all.

 

[Dragonet]

First time seeing Exprofundis, I guess it's a similar forum with a more generic, dark supernatural theme? I loved the story Black Sloth Hell, very cool theme. I shall have to make time to check out this forum's fanfiction!

 

[Skittelz1981]

Tbh, i dont really see the big problem.

Theres 2 kinds actually: those that play warhammer and those that dont.
The warhammerplayers that play AoS Undead will have their own spot here on the forum and be part of the vampire community, as will the players that play 8th ed VC/UL, as will the ones that play older versions. They all have a spot in this forum and part of the community.

Those that chose to go KoW.... well, make your own forum That game has nothing to do with Vampirecounts or warhammer.

In the last few years ive seen alot of warhammer players migrate to other systems like KoW, Starwars or other miniature tabletops.

The community is always moving around.
Sure AoS hurts, i kinda like it as a quick-to-play system. Its fun to have on the side while we still can roll with 8th edition. I dont mind it not being supported anymore, it hasnt been for a very long time anyway. UL was actually quite bad on many levels and it remains an option to play with UL or not. Basically we now have 3 main Vampire systems. AoS, UL 8th or regular 8th. (i dont count the older editions since i think theyre simply outdated and sucky).

If people wanna play KoW, let them but i really dont feel any drive to keep them within a vampire community. Everyone with any knowledge or interest in this forum is always welcome to post right? so theres no harm done.
Just stop the whining already about AoS, this is what we got and it aint gonna change. Maybe, just maybe GW has a surprise and will release some additional and more extensive rules for a more complicated/larger battles but i really dont count on it.
GW chose casual play over tournament and wrote rules accordingly.

There are fans out there with serious alternatives: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BdUboMHSwUrb4NHIqP4OihW7OL03V91gWrF79Ha0_2I/pub#h.fgyxcxtc2nq2
http://www.openhammer.org/Openhammer Manifesto (EN).pdf



I think both are very promising and potentially valid additions/updates to 8th edition or at least having something that resembles more to what we love to play.
This would mean that new models by GW can be made to fit into 8th edition by these kind of rulesets.

 

[Blutsauger]

@Skittelz1981
I love this community and Vampire Counts. But I hate Age of Sigmar, and Vampire Counts now only exist in posterity.

Am I no longer welcome?

 

[Dragonet]

I have to admit, I understood very well the anger at GW being confused with the release of Age Of Sigmar, but I didn't understand the idea of a division within our community until today.

I cannot disagree more fervently that there are only two types of gamer. Are we all either straight or gay, black or white? Are our politics left or right wing? This kind of divisiveness is dangerous and not becoming of a group of people with whom I wish to associate. Inclusiveness is the way foward, mark my words; there are as many types of wargamer as there are wargamers, we're all unique. We may spill each other's beer from time to time, but that's a small price to pay for being in good company in an excellent pub, with many fine drinks to choose from.

I guess the vital decision you guys need to make is how inclusive you choose to be. I appreciate that the clue may lie in the website address; if you want Vampire Counts then this is the place for you, but you've already excluded Nagash, Arkhan, the Lichemaster and the Doomlord there... So much for the rich tapestry of the Warhammer World. Of course, this is a puerile argument, but only marginally more so than that which has already been presented.

So you set the bar at AoS and WHFB in all its past and (hopefully many) future editions, complete with stats for new models and unit types as they surface; seeing as nobody but GW would suggest that the more competitive tournament players should either fall into line or onto their swords, it seems only fair that those enthused by older editions should find refuge here as well, they are just as much a part of the story and arguably did more to support GW back in the day. I assume that Warhammer Quest, Mordheim, Skirmish, Warbands and Siege would also be supported? These are also set in the Warhammer World, and were also produced by GW. After all, they each build on a solid base, and bring a great deal of narrative flavour to the game.

I admit, I can't expect our gracious host to hold a place at his table for any more wayward disciples beyond this point, but there's a discussion to be had here. Not only we, but GW's writers were influenced by other creative outlets before Warhammer came to be. The concept of vampires or the undead do not bear a trademark. The Warhammer World would have become sterile and boring long ago had external influences not found us, and wouldn't even exist as we know it without Tolkein, Bram Stoker, Lovecraft and many others. I don't know about you guys, but my brightest memories of gaming in GW run hand-in-hand with the Foo Fighters song 'Hero' playing in the store. What about all those excellent films that inspire us collectively? Nosferatu, the many iterations of Dracula, Blade, 28 Days Later, Hell even Shaun Of The Dead!

My point is that influences bleed into our creative world all the time and we pick and choose what to follow, what to get involved with and what to dismiss, and that applies equally to wargames. To shut the door on contributions from very similarly minded sources would be stifling, and to be honest I couldn't see how you could police it; half the threads would be deleted. Non-GW models or paints? Non-GW game mentioned? The status quo challenged? As far as I can recall, I wasn't made to pass a Warhammer test on application for membership, nor to swear off other wargames, TV or books, women, strong liquor or adventure sports.

Bear in mind, the games already discussed on this forum contain necromancers, vampires, skeletons, ghouls, zombies, sometimes represented differently in the fluff, sometimes sculpted differently. In some cases they were developed by former GW employees and founders, ie KoW. Others like WHFRP are produced on license and set in 'this' world. What about the TVC game that's been running for as long as I've been looking up Carpe Noctem? What about the fan fiction, art and modelling projects that so many hobbyists pour their heart and soul into, are they a detriment to this forum, or even of less than reasonable interest to warrant consideration?

I was baffled before because I couldn't understand what the divide was, let alone along which lines it lay, and I can't say I'm much further along in discerning that divide now. All I see is a tendency to polarise which clearly leads to division by itself, and to my mind that's the only threat this community faces. Live and let live; it's a game. Nobody can force you to read a thread on Kings of War or any other subject, even if Disciple Of Nagash is willing to have threads dedicated to it.